28-04-2004 20:36									#31
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I believe he is talking about the 1996 incident in southern Lebanon.

Also, Israel was in full control of letting people in and out of Sabra and Shatilla-why and Israeli enquiry found Sharon indirectly responsible for those killings.

	28-04-2004 20:37									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Yef Hey, and why is this happening ONLY in that town? Because they have been killing anyone that drives by, because the shoot at any coalition vehicle in the area. Fallujah is terrorist nest, and it is so because the local population supports them and hide them when coalition forces appear.

So did the people of Oradour sur Glane (see my 2nd post). They harbors resistors terrorists. They deserved to be burned to death.

quote: That's the Arab way of lies. They always claim to be the victims of injustices. They forget all that they do, all that they begin but fail to finish, and they forget all the injustice and suffering they have caused to other people.

Do you think these refugees have killed Americans?

quote: And what about the millions of Berbers in North Africa that resisted the Arab onslaught for centuries? Their language and culture are largely outlawed today. Millions in Black Africa have died resisting this forced Arabization, as well, and the fight continues in Sudan with millions of Blacks having been killed, maimed, enslaved, turned into refugees and the like.

I guess this justifies bombing any "suspicious" building, killing everyone within.

quote: For the Arabs, if you are not Arab, you are a dog, and they will use you, manipulate you, and learn how to speak to you with words of peace to convince you of their "plight", to receive your support, untill you become unnecessary. Then they will cut your throat for being an infidel if you resist, or make you a serf if you submit. For them, we are only dhimmies. For them, theirs is the only justice.

And for you, yours is the only justice as well. Don't you see your posts reek of ethnocentrism, thinking YOUR side and right, and THEIR side is wrong?

	28-04-2004 20:38									#33
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quote: Originally posted by GePap While Spiff might be too emotionally invested, to think many civilians are not getting killed in Fallujah given the Amount of firepower the US is using is silly. Also, on Jenin, no one said thousands, they said hundreds at the time (like 500 I believe). The Iraqi ministry of health (you know, our guys) was reporting well over 600 killed in Fallujah after the first week or so. Unless we believe US appointees have a reason to make things up against their overlords (nice word...), then the statements of significant civilian dead in Fallujah is very believeable.

1. The iraqi ministry of health is independent. I dont buy that theyre "puppets"

2. IIRC the Ministry of Health said total killed, not just civilians. Their has been continued confusion and controversy about whether any given dead is a civilian or a fighter. This is aggravated by the fighters practice of not wearing uniforms, and of deliberately feigning civilian status as a strategy.

In the case of the mosque that was attacked several weeks ago, the initial reports said that it was packed with worshippers. It later came out that it was being used as a firebase, and that Marines were being fired on from it.

And Yef is correct - in Fallujah, at least, the local muslim clergy seem to be aligned with the insurgency, and may well be coordinating the propaganda campaign.

	28-04-2004 20:40									#34
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quote: Originally posted by GePap While Spiff might be too emotionally invested

Yep.

As a European, I tend to have easy triggers on this issue. Because yes, these testimonies are highly believables, because occupations are ugly. Always (I almost titled this thread "Yes, occupations are ugly", but I chose a more trollish one in the end). And this is a reality most Americans prefer not to hear about.

	28-04-2004 20:40									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I believe he is talking about the 1996 incident in southern Lebanon. Also, Israel was in full control of letting people in and out of Sabra and Shatilla-why and Israeli enquiry found Sharon indirectly responsible for those killings.

yeah - they let them in with the understanding that they would search the place for fighters - you see the PLO DID hide fighters in refugee camps. Sharon was indirectly responsible cause it was held that he should have been more aware of the rage among the Phalangists.

	28-04-2004 20:41									#36
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quote: Originally posted by GePap While Spiff might be too emotionally invested,

Might be?

Anyway, I actually believe that there are regretable instances of collatteral damage going on. I just don't see any signifigant reason to believe the accounts that Spiffor is posting as gospel.

	28-04-2004 20:41									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Yef For them, we are only dhimmies. For them, theirs is the only justice.

I guess we should just kill them all then.

	28-04-2004 20:44									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And this is a reality most Americans prefer not to hear about.

BS, spiffor. US media have daily reports from Fallujah, and Najaf these days. Youd think the rest of Iraq had suddenly fallen off the face of the earth. Hardly any stories about Kurdistan, about the parts of the south that are quiet. The US is revelling in the ugliness, not avoiding it.

Oh, the NYT DID have a story the other day about how the Shiites in Najaf were increasingly resenting Al Sadr. But that was a pretty significant finding, I think.

	28-04-2004 20:45									#39
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark yeah - they let them in with the understanding that they would search the place for fighters - you see the PLO DID hide fighters in refugee camps. Sharon was indirectly responsible cause it was held that he should have been more aware of the rage among the Phalangists.

Yes, so the IDF could have done the searches themselves. UNless of course Sharon and the generals could not have gived a damn if Palestinian civilians got killed or not, and thus let their cronies do the work.

	28-04-2004 20:47									#40
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quote: He has seen young people whose legs and thorax were full of ecchymoses, a sign the Americans are torturing people there

Spiffor, this isnt an accusation of negligence, or collateral damage. This is an accusationof deliberate torture.


This is VERY SERIOUS. If this is true, than the USMC is commiting WAR CRIMES of the most serious kind.

Do you believe its true?

If its a lie, than it calls into the question the credibility of the entire article, IMHO.

	28-04-2004 20:48									#41
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Oh, the NYT DID have a story the other day about how the Shiites in Najaf were increasingly resenting Al Sadr. But that was a pretty significant finding, I think.

Good, I hope they'll kick his bastard ass. And I hope this will be done by Iraqis wanting stability, rather than by Americans going all guns blzing.

	28-04-2004 20:49									#42
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But, of course, we all'd rather be rich and healthy, than poor, and sick. But this is trivial. What if you have no choice.

	28-04-2004 20:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I guess we should just kill them all then.

No. We should force democracy on them, ban any political party with links to terrorism, and create a middle class that benefits from this system.

The Arab world have to be rebuilt, for their own sake.

Islam have failed to modernize like Christianism and Judaism did. We have to make them do.
Otherwise the suffering will continue forever.

	28-04-2004 20:50									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Good, I hope they'll kick his bastard ass. And I hope this will be done by Iraqis wanting stability, rather than by Americans going all guns blzing.

BTW, in Fallujah the US has set up joint patrols with Iraqis. The US has gone in in force ONLY in those sections of the city too dangerous for that.

	28-04-2004 20:50									#45
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First, a lot of these reports are unconfirmed or outright false.

Second, the terrorists and insurgents hide in mosques, civilian centers and use women and chidlren as human shields. They are the ones to blame for the violence.

let's put the blame where it belongs, on the terrorists and insurgents that are endangering the lives of innocent civilians and that started the violence in the first place.

	28-04-2004 20:50									#46
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The torture proposition looks to be an empty piece of rubbish.

But anyone who thinks soldiers of any nationality under the sun (now or ever) can engage in fire fights in cities without a considerable measure of brutality is daft.

There seem to be honourable exceptions though.

An account I read in the Times to-day struck me. It is about a soldier who was told by his comanding officer that he had been awarded the Military Cross - for gallant and distinguished service in battle - following his involvement in an action in Iraq. Aparently the man was particularly excited by this as an MC had not been awarded to anyone in his battalion for almost 40 years.

But sadly he died the next day - from a brain haemorage unconnected with his army service.

Anyway the thing that struck me was this. The incident in which he won the MC took place in the small town of al-Tannunah where Sgt Major Leigh found himself and his men under attack, initially from a crowd of Iraqis throwing stones and bricks, and then by gunmen in the crowd.

Fire was returned and the Sgt Major ordered his men to take cover. But he realised that they were isolated and unlikely to be reinforced so he called on his men to advance and despite being wounded in the legs by shrapnel from a grenade he led his men in a baton charge which dispelled the crowd.

Which is the point. It was a baton charge.

That seems to me galant indeed.

If I were led by such a man at such a time I believe some part of the gratitude I would owe him would be for helping me avoid participating in the indiscriminate slaughter of the Iraqis in that crowd as well as for extracting me alive from such a frightening situation.

I am all for feeling sympathy for the Iraqis. And a Frenchman is bound to be reminded of the dark days when his own country was under the occupation of foreignors.

But let us not badmouth men like Sgt Major Leigh without a rather better basis than is set out in this article.

	28-04-2004 20:51									#47
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, so the IDF could have done the searches themselves. UNless of course Sharon and the generals could not have gived a damn if Palestinian civilians got killed or not, and thus let their cronies do the work.

I think weve gone over that incident on this forum before. We're now getting away from the point of the thread. Guevera is very good at threadjacking, no?

	28-04-2004 20:51									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Yef No. We should force democracy on them, The Arab world have to be rebuilt, for their own sake. Islam have failed to modernize like Christianism and Judaism did. We have to make them do. Otherwise the suffering will continue forever.

Because of course we're morally superior to them all.

I don't know about you, but enforced democracy seems a bit of an oxymoron.

	28-04-2004 20:52									#49
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Do you believe its true?

I believe there are isolated occurences of torture performed by soldiers or low-ranking officers, yes. I don't think it is actively encouraged by the higher ranking officiers though, so it is not on the same systematic level as in the battle of Algiers (:vomit: ) or the German occupation of France.

We are talking about soldiers who have seen their own being burned and hanged to bridges by an overjoyed crowd. We are talking about soldiers who have good reasons to fear for their life everytime they venture in the city. OF COURSE they are able to behave like beasts - that's what the combo of hatred + survival instinct results in.

	28-04-2004 20:52									#50
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Well, "we" (the US) started the violence in the first place by invading. After that, rebellion against a non-democratic regime (which is what our occupation is) is at least understandable, specially in a place looking to lose out under the change in regime.

This is what we should have seen coming all along. That it got this bad in Fallujah is a failure of earlier policy.

Yes, lets remember who's fault this is.

	28-04-2004 20:54									#51
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quote: Americans bring enlightenment and progress to Iraq

Did you really expect otherwise?

	28-04-2004 20:56									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I believe there are isolated occurences of torture performed by soldiers or low-ranking officers, yes. OF COURSE they are able to behave like beasts - that's what the combo of hatred + survival instinct results in.

Everything I have read quoting US Marines in Falujah shows steely determination, and a determinination to distinguish innocent civilians from the the insurgents. NOT a generalized hatred.

	28-04-2004 20:59									#53
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Everything I have read quoting US Marines in Falujah shows steely determination, and a determinination to distinguish innocent civilians from the the insurgents. NOT a generalized hatred.

There is no telling the ecchymosed ones weren't rebels. Or at least, "suspected" of detaining info. In Algiers, pretty much all the tortured were "suspected" of having info. And torture was felt as needed to avoid the death of innocent people getting blown up in terror attacks.

	28-04-2004 20:59									#54
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quote: Originally posted by GePap . After that, rebellion against a non-democratic regime (which is what our occupation is) is at least understandable, specially in a place looking to lose out under the change in regime. .

And Sistani, Chalabi et al are pushing for earlier elections. Do you have any evidence that the insurgents in Fallujah are interested in earlier elections?? All evidence I see is that they are not, and are interested in avoiding any elections whatsoever - so the "non-democratic regime" is a red herring.


BTW, there are numerous reports of large numbers of foreign fighters among the insurgents in Fallujah.

	28-04-2004 21:00									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil Because of course we're morally superior to them all.

Yes we are!
We don't call jihads to exterminate other people, we don't send our youngs with explosive belts to blow school buses, we don't persecute minorities, we don';t prohibit other religions, we don't kill girls for becoming pregnant while being single, and we don't flight planes into civilian buildings.

quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil I don't know about you, but enforced democracy seems a bit of an oxymoron.

It have to be forced because if you let them on their own, the mullahs and their petty dictators will remain in power forever.

	28-04-2004 21:01									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor There is no telling the ecchymosed ones weren't rebels.

There's also no telling if they even exist.

	28-04-2004 21:01									#57
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quote: Yes we are! We don't call jihads to exterminate other people, we don't send our youngs with explosive belts to blow school buses, we don't persecute minorities, we don';t prohibit other religions, we don't kill girls for becoming pregnant while being single, and we don't flight planes into civilian buildings.

Firstly, we do persecute minorities and most of the areas where we are different are somewhat like mere trifles. Nonetheless, how do these differences make the West superior? Really I'm interested

	28-04-2004 21:03									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor There is no telling the ecchymosed ones weren't rebels. Or at least, "suspected" of detaining info. In Algiers, pretty much all the tortured were "suspected" of having info. And torture was felt as needed to avoid the death of innocent people getting blown up in terror attacks.

But its generally believed today that torture tends to get you bad info. Better info is obtained through alternative interrogation techniques, and this is widely known in the US military. If he had accused the US military of using sleep deprivation, psychological pressure, etc I might beleive him. What is accused is simply not credible, IMHO.

The US occupation in Iraq is NOT the French occupation in Algeria.

	28-04-2004 21:04									#59
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark And Sistani, Chalabi et al are pushing for earlier elections. Do you have any evidence that the insurgents in Fallujah are interested in earlier elections?? All evidence I see is that they are not, and are interested in avoiding any elections whatsoever - so the "non-democratic regime" is a red herring.

I am sorry but this is weak. 1: unless you can show me a poll of the sunni triangle, your first general statement was nothing more than a BAM. Second, the simple FACTS are that currently IRaq is under the rule of a non-elected Occupation authority selected by the US. You can;t possible argue that that is not the current form of government. The justification for the inavsion and occupation do NOT undo the fact a country was invaded and occupied by a foreign power- well, when that happens you get resistance sometimes. It was all foreseable.

quote: BTW, there are numerous reports of large numbers of foreign fighters among the insurgents in Fallujah.

There are reports of large numbers of foreign soldiers on the occupation authorities's side: the US Marines.

Please, you can do better than these weak generalizations and boiler-plate messages.

	28-04-2004 21:11									#60
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LotM

Is it altogether surprizing to find that US marines describe their own actions in glowiing terms?

Or any more surprising that an occupied people think ill of - and speak badly of - the occupiers.

The most surprising thing of all would be if the truth lay wholly with either the one or the other.

The Times carried an account a week or two back of one particularly troubled area where a ban was placed on the local populace entering. The reporter set out one conversation between two GIs discussing a man who was seen walking in this area. They agreed that his having a hand in his pockets was suspicious and they then shot him dead with no compunction. Shortly afterwards a local came into his garden for the obvious - if weird - intention of tending it. The soldiers thought this guy was funny and he got a warning shot. At which (happily) he scutled back inside. But had he not done so he too was going to die.

The reporter had no doubt the soldiers were inured to what they were doing and it was clear that it was in line with what their commanders considered necessary there at that time.

This was not an account from anyone with any apparent reason to be biased and had no junk in it comparable to the article which starts this thread.

Put those particular soldiers in a fire fight with their blood up and I am afraid that to hope for a steely determination to distinguish innocent civilians is to hope for the moon.