28-04-2004 21:32									#1
	Lack of Resouces... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hey all. I've been playing a builder game on a huge map. I'm really beginning to wonder about Firaxis.


Do you guys know what the third most abundant element in the earth's crust is? It's aluminum. Yes, right next to oxygen and silicon is alumimum. Thus, is the most abundant metal on the earth.

Why then, on a huge map, is there only two tiles with aluminum? This is really starting to tick me off! I own half a continent on a world with only 60% water, and only 2 contintents. More precisely, I cover 32% of the surface of the earth. And you know what? I have no aluminum on my half of the continent!


Sometimes this game just doesn't make any sense. I had to go send 4 marines in a transport up a 7 turn trip to make an amphib assault on a town to get some. In doing so, I caused a world war that has so far lasted over 20 turns. I had to build an air force and navy to protect my port cities from the enemy's naval fleets.

In short, getting aluminum was a real hassle that cost me a lot of gold and production. All because Firaxis made the 3rd most abundant element in the earth's crust a very rare resource.

Well, enough ranting,
Dan O.

	28-04-2004 21:38									#2
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I just looked it up in some of my materials science material.

Aluminum comprises 82,300mg per kg of the earths crust, thus, the earth is 8.23% aluminum.

Makes you wonder when you can only find two tiles on an entire huge map!

	28-04-2004 21:41									#3
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Oh yeah, to compare, iron is only 53,300mg per kg of the earth's crust.

Thus, the earth is 5.63% Iron.

I have 2 squares of iron in my own territory. I believe there are 4 or 6 on the map.

	28-04-2004 21:53									#4
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Forget realism. It's a game. Resources are not available to everyone because it makes the game more interesting.

Also, you must know that the number of resources is proportional to the number of players in the game. Unless you didn't find all the instances of aluminum, it sounds like you are playing a huge map with about 2 opponents. The game was designed to be played with 16 civilizations on huge maps, which would result in about 19 instances of aluminum in CivIII/PTW, and 14 instances in C3C.

Edit: if you have 4-6 instances of iron, then you surely have 3-4 instances of aluminum (aluminum has 75% the appearance ratio of iron). Look harder!

Last edited by alexman on 28-04-2004 at 22:40

	28-04-2004 22:24									#5
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Yes forget realism, resources are not available to everyone because it causes more wars! Opps! I guess that is realism.

However, I agree Vanilla is mostly a tasteless treat.

	28-04-2004 23:06									#6
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Isn't it funny though how in real life, iron, aluminum, etc are easlily come by, but it's the stuff like Chromium and Cobalt that are rare.

There are some alloys that we make with iron and other metals that are very expensive because of the rarity of the alloyed metals.

In fact, I think that Cobalt is one of the most expensive metals in this country that is used in alloys.

I have 3 opponents right now. So, somewhere there is a third aluminum I guess. I'll have to look.

In reality, the only reason we use so much steel in this county is because of the cost of aluminum. Aluminum is not hard to mine, but it hard to refine. Aluminum must be refined by a process of electrolysis. The refineries often take up close to half an average power plant's output.

I still think there should be more aluminum than iron in Civ.

Anyway, I guess I'll have to play with more civs in the future to increase the amount of resources on the map. Of course, I'll have to be sure to grab the land first!

	28-04-2004 23:53									#7
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Good call Melboz99!!

However, I am prejudiced to one thing.

'Mod like hell, it is the next best thing to intelligence'

Happy Gaming!

	29-04-2004 05:55									#8
	Re: Lack of Resouces... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Melboz99 Hey all. I've been playing a builder game.... I had to go send 4 marines in a transport up a 7 turn trip to make an amphib assault on a town to get some. In doing so, I caused a world war that has so far lasted over 20 turns. I had to build an air force and navy to protect my port cities from the enemy's naval fleets.

Yeh, it's tough when the game forces you to take into account other civ's possible reactions to your desire to grab required resources.

While resource scarcity is certainly a hotly debated issue, it does make you realise that strategic choices are fairly well interwoven.

	29-04-2004 12:12									#9
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quote: Originally posted by alexman ...The game was designed to be played with 16 civilizations on huge maps....

So when I play at standard maps I put the AI at a disatvantage because it is designed to work at another map size?

Or are you saying that on a huge map, you're *supposed* to have 16 civs?

	29-04-2004 19:40									#10
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Yup, remember the game could only handle 16 civ when it came out.

	29-04-2004 20:32									#11
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quote: Originally posted by bongo So when I play at standard maps I put the AI at a disatvantage because it is designed to work at another map size?

No, I was just saying that huge maps are balanced for 16 civilizations. Standard maps are designed for 8 civilizations.

That's not to say that you shouldn't play with as many opponents you like, of course. You just have to be prepared to deal with issues like the one in this thread if you do.

	29-04-2004 20:57									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, it seems that all is not lost.

I found one of the VERY few Uraniums in my own territory. I also have one rubber, and two oil. So, basically, with a few *small* wars I was able to obtain all the neccessary resources.

I completed the game via space race in the year of my birth, 1980.

Thanks for the replies guys,
I'll be sure to play with more civs next time,
Dan O.

	29-04-2004 23:15									#13
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alexman , do you happen to know if the game was designed with a certain map size in mind? (I like to think that size is 'standard', cause of the name )

	29-04-2004 23:21									#14
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I think you're right. Standard size, continents seems to be the map type where most elements of the game are balanced (civ traits, AI behavior, warmongering versus building, etc).

	30-04-2004 02:17									#15
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quote: Originally posted by alexman I think you're right. Standard size, continents seems to be the map type where most elements of the game are balanced (civ traits, AI behavior, warmongering versus building, etc).

In other words, the default settings when starting a new game.

I wonder if there is any combination of civs that would give the most balanced game, ie taking into account civ traits, culture group, UU, etc...

	30-04-2004 10:30									#16
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Please. Just that aluminium is a common component in the earth's crust doesn't mean that commercially usuable ores are. For practical purposes, aluminium is alot harder to get by than iron.

	30-04-2004 10:57									#17
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Also playing on a huge map, only 2 tiles of Oil, both on the same island (that i don't control!), only about 10 tiles apart, makes me very angry!!!!

	30-04-2004 21:49									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Please. Just that aluminium is a common component in the earth's crust doesn't mean that commercially usuable ores are. For practical purposes, aluminium is alot harder to get by than iron.

Actually, I don't think the ores are too hard to come by, though I could be wrong.

What I learned in Materials Science class is that the refinement process (via electrolysis) uses so much electricity that it is almost always done in places where there is cheap hydro-power.

Although, even though the earth is over 5% iron, I know we have very little useable ore in this courntry, though we are developing new methods for refining the ore we do have.

You could be right, but it just doesn't completley agree with what I learned in Materials Science.

Dan O.

	30-04-2004 23:20									#19
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I'm right.

Very much of those 8.23% of the earth is spread out in concentrations that are not commercially interesting, which problem is reinforced by the energy-intense extraction cost - since you're likely gonna have to ship the stuff to Norway (frex), you really don't want to have most of your shipments consist of silicium oxides.

Iron is simply more commonly found in high concentrations (pure magnetite is something like 80% iron by weight!), in addition to being simpler to extract.

	01-05-2004 00:34									#20
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Yeah, we ran out of pure magnetite here in the states years ago. Since then, states like Michigan have been working hard trying to refine some much lesser qualities of Iron.

Wouldn't they be able to stip-mine aluminum much the way they do gold? I saw something on the TV one day about how they mine gold these days. They basically dig up 100s of cubic acres of soil and rock, extract the gold, and put the dirt back, with top soil on top. I hear they get more gold that way in a year than what existed (refined) on the earth 100 years ago.

All in all it's amazing how cheap metals are as it is. I'm in a cost estimating class, and the value we use for stock steel is only $0.25 USD per pound. That's not bad at all for what your getting. Of course, add cobalt as an alloying ingredient, and the cost goes up exponentially.

Funny how I never heard the fact that aluminum isn't frequently found in high densities in that materials class. The instructor made it sound like high refinement costs were the only reason for aluminum's price.


Dan O.

	01-05-2004 01:57									#21
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Maybe you guys should play the DYP mod some more

	01-05-2004 06:42									#22
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DYP?

	02-05-2004 04:32									#23
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'Double Your Pleasure'. Insane numbers of techs, resources, units....possibly a little TOO complex for the likes of me
To the best of my knowledge, a cut-down version is built into PTW anyway...?

	02-05-2004 06:32									#24
	Re: Lack of Resouces... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Melboz99 Hey all. I've been playing a builder game on a huge map. I'm really beginning to wonder about Firaxis. Do you guys know what the third most abundant element in the earth's crust is? It's aluminum. Yes, right next to oxygen and silicon is alumimum. Thus, is the most abundant metal on the earth......

Although I agre that Al is much more prevelent than the game suggests, I must disagree with your assertion that its the third most abundant element, especially when you do not list Hydrogen above Oxygen and Silicon. Also it should be pointed out that much of the metal that does exist is located in the molten core of the earth, which is not currently available for consumption.

	02-05-2004 09:09									#25
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The largest source of Aluminum actually comes from French Guiana (and neighboring countrys) in Northern south america. Aluminum comes, basicly, from certain kinds of clay, and they have alot of that clay with high densitys of aluminum in that part of South America. As a bonus, there are several rivers running from a interior rain forest that provide lots and lots of sources for Hydro-power. That large source of Aluminum is also one of the reasons that France bases its Space industry there.

(Of course, the most important reason is because it is close to the equator, and costs millions of dollars less to launch something from the equator then it does in the Temperate areas. ((thus why Americas space pad is in Florida, Russias is in Kazahkastan...)) I think because Centrifical force is stronger along the equator, and helps fling stuff off the planet. Not sure on that though!)

I also heard you could also get just about every imaginable resource and metal out there..from sea water. Have fun trying!

	02-05-2004 09:56									#26
	Re: Re: Lack of Resouces... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Although I agre that Al is much more prevelent than the game suggests, I must disagree with your assertion that its the third most abundant element, especially when you do not list Hydrogen above Oxygen and Silicon. Also it should be pointed out that much of the metal that does exist is located in the molten core of the earth, which is not currently available for consumption.

Actually, I'm looking at a periodic table right now.

Under the heading "Elemental Abundance In the Earth's Crust" is the list of the top ten, as follows.

1. Oxygen
2. Silicon
3. Aluminum
4. Iron
5. Calcium
6. Sodium
7. Magnesium
8. Potassium
9. Titanium
10. Hydrogen

Of course this is not in the amount of atoms, but rather mg per kg of crust. Hydrogen not having any neutrons, only one electron, and one proton is very light. How much there is in atoms I have no clue, but in weight it is the tenth most common element in the earth.

As for the molton core thingy, technically, the core is made up of uranium (in theory) but if you refer to the mantle that is under the crust, well I think there is more of everything down there, not just aluminum. Besides, what is in the mantle makes no difference to the stated list, which is the most abundant elements in the earth's crust, not mantle.

Dan O.

	02-05-2004 17:42									#27
	Re: Re: Re: Lack of Resouces... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Melboz99 Actually, I'm looking at a periodic table right now. Under the heading "Elemental Abundance In the Earth's Crust"..... Dan O.

I apologize, I failed to read the statement that you were specifically discussing the earth's crust. (it's been a while since I took earth science)

As for the Core I found this info on:
www nineplanets.org/earth.html

The core is probably composed mostly of iron (or nickel/iron) though it is possible that some lighter elements may be present, too. Temperatures at the center of the core may be as high as 7500 K, hotter than the surface of the Sun. The lower mantle is probably mostly silicon, magnesium and oxygen with some iron, calcium and aluminum. The upper mantle is mostly olivene and pyroxene (iron/magnesium silicates), calcium and aluminum. We know most of this only from seismic techniques; samples from the upper mantle arrive at the surface as lava from volcanoes but the majority of the Earth is inaccessible. The crust is primarily quartz (silicon dioxide) and other silicates like feldspar. Taken as a whole, the Earth's chemical composition (by mass) is:


34.6% Iron
29.5% Oxygen
15.2% Silicon
12.7% Magnesium
2.4% Nickel
1.9% Sulfur
0.05% Titanium

	02-05-2004 21:39									#28
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This is getting complicated. If less aluminium (english spelling!!) than is realistic equals better gameplay then so be it.