29-04-2004 01:22									#1
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What is it that gives the majority in a true democracy the right to impose themselves on the minority. And what are the limits to that imposition? if the majority of people thought that all immigration to the US needs to be stopped, would that make them right? what if they thought that only whites can be admitted into america? is that right? or what if the majority decided that slavery was the way to go? does this justify slavery.

my question i guess is how can we rely and trust in a democracy when there is no inherent limit to what the majority can do.

	29-04-2004 01:27									#2
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Oh,damn, LoA. What is better? When will all want the exact same thing?

Here, pick some and read.

http://www.google.com/search?q=defi...=utf-8&oe=utf-8

	29-04-2004 01:27									#3
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Hence having a republic, as opposed to a democracy.

-Arrian

	29-04-2004 01:30									#4
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quote: What is it that gives the majority in a true democracy the right to impose themselves on the minority.

'Cause there is more of them .

	29-04-2004 01:34									#5
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There are more Chinese than there are Americans.
Thus, America should surrender itself to China

	29-04-2004 01:35									#6
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As should the Russians, and turn in the "Lord God Putin" for "re-education."

-Arrian

	29-04-2004 01:36									#7
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Yes... Lord God Putin needs to be crucifed for his sins.

	29-04-2004 01:36									#8
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The Chinese and Russian peoples are Friends Forever, Enemies Never!!!

	29-04-2004 01:37									#9
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There are more cochroaches and bacteria than man. Guess we should submit to them as well.

	29-04-2004 01:39									#10
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quote: The Chinese and Russian peoples are Friends Forever, Enemies Never!!!

Says the begging Russkie.

	29-04-2004 01:40									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe There are more cochroaches and bacteria than man. Guess we should submit to them as well.

True democracy in action.

	29-04-2004 01:48									#12
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quote: Hence having a republic, as opposed to a democracy.

i dont see how that changes anything - the majority of our representatives still leads to no inherent limit to what they can think up of.

quote: When will all want the exact same thing?

why should we all want the same thing? cant you let people decide what they want for themselves? why must we be in lockstep with the rest of the population?

	29-04-2004 01:52									#13
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I offer my services as your benevolent dictator.

	29-04-2004 01:59									#14
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this question must be above most ACSers as evident by the spam in this thread.

	29-04-2004 02:05									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia cant you let people decide what they want for themselves?

Not when people's wants conflict with one another. If I want to enslave you and you don't want to be enslaved, then clearly we have a conflict of interest, and we can't both do what we want. Majority Rules seems to be as good a system as any for resolving conflicts, unless you were to propose Loinburger's Rule By Fiat as an alternative.

	29-04-2004 02:10									#16
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May I use cuss words to explain?

	29-04-2004 02:11									#17
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Hell, you can use cuss words even if you're not going to explain!

	29-04-2004 02:13									#18
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OK. It's the way to divide the manshit equally.

	29-04-2004 03:02									#19
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Democracy is designed to appease the people into thinking they have some power when of course they have little more than a citizen of a dictatorship. Nonetheless, it keeps them happy, reducing the risk of revolution. It gives the leaders a fantastic opportunity to extoll the virtues of their nation to the people, ultimately leading to the forwarding of large, patriotic and loyal armies.

We cannot argue that democracy has some benefits. For example, it serves as something of a check on tyrants who would abuse their own people (another people? Thats another matter). It also generally goes hand in hand with liberty, which is of course of real benefit. That isn't a strong link however, liberty can be gained in a dictatorship providing that the corruption does not occur.

Overal, in my opinion, democracy is a good idea with some benefits but I give it a .

	29-04-2004 03:36									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia What is it that gives the majority in a true democracy the right to impose themselves on the minority.

The idea would be that there was a consensus about this once.

quote: And what are the limits to that imposition? if the majority of people thought that all immigration to the US needs to be stopped, would that make them right? what if they thought that only whites can be admitted into america? is that right? or what if the majority decided that slavery was the way to go? does this justify slavery. my question i guess is how can we rely and trust in a democracy when there is no inherent limit to what the majority can do.

That's why democracy requires to be backed by a constitution, though I don't think that immigration rights are protected anywhere.

	29-04-2004 03:42									#21
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Democracy is simply rule of the mayority-this is what it meant at its inception, as Aristotle compares it to the Autocrat, or the Oligarchs.

The issue today is that we conflate democracy with individual rights. You could have an oligarchy with individual rights as well-voting for your leader is only one possible right to have.

So it is a simple answer-democracy is just the rule of th mayority. What we have today is a system of checks and balances and all sorts of institutions to balance out dmeocratic and oligarchic leanings.

	29-04-2004 03:46									#22
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what GePap said

	29-04-2004 03:51									#23
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What we have today is a system of checks and balances and all sorts of institutions to balance out dmeocratic and oligarchic leanings.

I hope you don't actually believe that its working

	29-04-2004 03:57									#25
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What Loinburger said. "Letting people do what they want" is all right and good as long as interests don't clash. When they clash, however, there is a need of arbitration, and democracy is one way to take this kind of decisions. You could have despots doing it for you, you could have technocrats doing it for you, etc.

There is another thing that Loinburger doesn't mention, however. It is that a community should offer a variety of services anybody could freeride in, if they weren't forced to take part of it (through taxes). Whether you pay your taxes or not, you benefit from streets, public lighting, police protection, military defense etc. just as well. Fundamentally, these services and many other are collective in nature, and cannot be ruled by individual whim.

Democracy is a way to rule this, which offers satisfaction to the majority of the people.

	29-04-2004 04:54									#26
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Democracy is simply rule of the mayority-this is what it meant at its inception, as Aristotle compares it to the Autocrat, or the Oligarchs. The issue today is that we conflate democracy with individual rights. You could have an oligarchy with individual rights as well-voting for your leader is only one possible right to have. So it is a simple answer-democracy is just the rule of th mayority. What we have today is a system of checks and balances and all sorts of institutions to balance out dmeocratic and oligarchic leanings.

No. Democracy requires that there is at least ONE unanimous vote, by which everyone agrees to follow the will of the majority. However, no one would do it unless given some promise as to what can never be done by the majority.

	29-04-2004 04:57									#27
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Democracy is basically bollocks. Who's with me?

	29-04-2004 05:20									#28
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I don't know of anything better.

	29-04-2004 05:28									#29
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Benevolent dictatorship (assume no corruption and expertise in relevant matters), or possibility of AI technocracy operating on a concrete libertarian principle.

	29-04-2004 05:55									#30
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quote: Not when people's wants conflict with one another. If I want to enslave you and you don't want to be enslaved, then clearly we have a conflict of interest, and we can't both do what we want.

so then make sure that it is illegal for people to be enslaved and for others to take and to coerce others. a democracy doesnt necesasairlyu do this.