30-04-2004 00:16									#1
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When playing the PKs (Biogentics) or Univ (Freebie Tech), do you ever go for SotHB before heading to IA?

	30-04-2004 00:50									#2
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The more techs you have to more they cost to research. I go for the ones I need and ignore the rest for as long as possible.

	30-04-2004 02:04									#3
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When I play the University, I always go for Industrial Automation straight away, picking Centauri Ecology as my free tech.

	30-04-2004 02:19									#4
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I would go for it. It gives you a free tech, which can be used to the beeline for IA.

	30-04-2004 03:35									#5
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But it makes the other techs cost about 40% more on the beeline.

So you take 3 non-beeline techs, to get one beeline tech, and also slow your tech rate significantly.

Not smart.

-Jam

	30-04-2004 03:42									#6
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But effective against native life, and in my first PBEM it payed me off because another player traded it for IA, so I got that o-so-important tech as well!!

	30-04-2004 05:43									#7
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In TCP/IP games, factions start slightly accelerated, which includes extra techs. A faction can start with both Biogenetics and Social Psych, in which case I will go for SotHB.

	06-05-2004 21:27									#8
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Always get IA first. If your goal is to have more tech, get IA, then doctrine flexibility, and steal the free tech off the faction that researched SotHB before you.

Judged on its own merits, SotHB is a pretty mediocre tech. It _is_ a gateway to some more interesting techs, but in the early game, ramping up your resource intake and snatching up early SPs is paramount. A mere tech lead can be recovered. A population and development lead is alot harder catch up to.

	06-05-2004 21:58									#9
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Actually I concern myself with SotHB for the Trance ability more than the free tech. Once you go FM, you really need trance.

	06-05-2004 22:59									#10
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I'm only so excited about trance, even in FM. Early native life tends to be very weak, and even with the psi penalty imposed by a poor planet rating, you can usually overcome any worms that crop up in the normal course of a game. Trance only really becomes critical if you're facing a human adversary who's intent on mobbing you with worms.

Also, my point about this is that SotHB doesn't get you IA any faster. IA is far more useful a tech, and generally getting it early means a fast transition to wealth, crawler production and a few quick SP's. After I've got IA, SotHB is relatively quick to come, although more because I want Bio-Engineering than Trance garrisons.

	06-05-2004 23:33									#11
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Planet Rating doesn't effect psy defence anyway, only attack. So Trance isn't effected by FM, or vice verse.

-Jam

	07-05-2004 00:08									#12
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Yes, but pre-FM I attack incoming worms giving me a 3:2 advantage. After FM that advantage is gone due to the -30% to psi attacks

	07-05-2004 00:41									#13
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Livid,

I'm confused about what your trying to say. If running FM trance offers no help in atttack. If your saying you want to defend better thats one point of view but realistically in the first years on planet womrs attack at penalty such that any normal unit will defend OK in base.

During FM I hardly have the time for creation of units or trolling for worms. Everything is normally geared towards pods first, infrastructure second. As a consequence I rarely am attacking worms in FM but will defend. The only caveat to this is if and when setting down new bases you are in large fungal areas having a designated trance defender accompanying the colony pod is helpful. IMO though it is normally wasteful of build quee time to build the extra defender when instead you could have been producing facilities or formers.


ABout the only time I'm glad to get SotHB first is if a) I'm running a double blind research game or b) if as University I plow through to IA and am still able to get to SotHB beore other factions.

	07-05-2004 00:44									#14
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In an OCC with Uni, I found that going for SotHB before IA causes IA alone to take nearly three times as long to research. Once this happens, your only hope is to get size 5 and use scientists to research, but that's pretty hard if you can't crawl in nutrients =P.

	07-05-2004 00:55									#15
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For the first 15 years, worms attack units in the open at a penalty. For the first 50 years, worms attack units in bases at a penalty. Each of these penalties is strong enough that you should be able to win almost all the time. Furthermore, non-combat units defend against worms as if they were combat units when in bases.

	07-05-2004 01:51									#16
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Ogie, let me see if I can clear this up.

Pre-FM I prefer to attack incoming (as in attacking my base) to get the +50% bonus for attacking during psi combat.
Net bonus to me +50%

Post-FM without trance I prefer to attack to get the +50% bonus for attacking during psi combat. Minus the 30% plenty under FM.
Net bonus to me +20%

Post-FM I prefer to defend against worms assuming I have the trance ability. Worm attacks +50% vs my trance +50% and base bonus +25%. And by this time it is likely I have a sensor bonus +25%
Net bonus to me +50%

Allowing a worm to attack a non-trance scout in a base results in the following. Worm gains +50% for psi attack. You gain +25% for base defense.
Net bonus to the Worm +25%. Later on you'll get even odds with a sensor.

I understand that worms attack at "half strength" during the early part of the game. So wouldn't that still result in a +12.5% net bonus for the worm?

Balancing out the numbers I'd rather have a +50% than breaking even. Given that the definition of "half strength" isn't clearly defined, I could be way off on this, but this is how I have been going at it. If anyone has a superior model, I'd love to see it.

	07-05-2004 02:24									#17
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quote: Allowing a worm to attack a non-trance scout in a base results in the following. Worm gains +50% for psi attack. You gain +25% for base defense. Net bonus to the Worm +25%. Later on you'll get even odds with a sensor. I understand that worms attack at "half strength" during the early part of the game. So wouldn't that still result in a +12.5% net bonus for the worm?

No... more like a -25% penalty (-25%(base) +50%(attacker) -50%(earlygame))

-Jam

	07-05-2004 02:26									#18
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Oh and of course we must remember that a run to IA will normally mean a change to Wealth when we get there, for another -25% to the human player because of the Morale hit.

-Jam

	07-05-2004 07:34									#19
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True there is a window of vulnerability between IA and SotHB (trance) but nothing appreciable that the extra mins can't help you overcome if need be.

	07-05-2004 09:58									#20
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Typical scout patrol attacking a mind worm under FM/Wealth:
Scout patrol's strength is
3 * .7 (-3 planet) * .75 (Very green) = 1.575
Mind worm's strength is
2 * .875 (green) = 1.75

Advantage: Mind worm

Remember that all + and - %s are really *(1+%), and all modifiers are multiplicative.

	07-05-2004 13:45									#21
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I thought all modifiers were ADDITIVE.
Take Base + Perimiter + Tachyon:

(+25%)+(+100%)+(+100%) = +225% when done additive, which is correct.

(+25%)x(+100%)x(+100%) = +500% when multiplied, which is wrong.

-Jam

	07-05-2004 22:28									#22
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Ah, but base defense facilities don't work like that. A perimeter defense alters the base defense mod from +25% to +100% (which is neither of the cases you calculated), and a tachyon field increase the base defense multiplier by 1, which makes +100% become +200%. I don't know what a tachyon field without a perimeter defense does, but I suspect you also get just +100%.

Veteran scout patrol in a bare base: 1 * (1+.25) * (1+.25) = 1.625
Veteran scout patrol in a perim defense base: 1 * (1+1) * (1+.25) = 2.5
Veteran scout patrol in a tachyon + perim base: 1 * (1+2) * (1+.25) = 3.75

	07-05-2004 23:24									#23
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MATH FIGHT!

	07-05-2004 23:39									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Oh and of course we must remember that a run to IA will normally mean a change to Wealth when we get there, for another -25% to the human player because of the Morale hit. -Jam

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe True there is a window of vulnerability between IA and SotHB (trance) but nothing appreciable that the extra mins can't help you overcome if need be.

Doesn't -2 Morale SE only give a -12.5% penalty to offense, and doesn't effect defense? And after you build Children's Creches the negative morale effects disappear, and you still get a +2 morale bonus, meaning you'll defend and attack with a +12.5% morale bonus, and also meaning that factions with a negative morale SE will have stronger units than a faction with 0 Morale SE, who will have disciplined morale units in a base with Children's Creche.
That's at least what my tests showed... (Sucks for Spartans, whose Morale bonus isn't very useful anymore... )

	08-05-2004 00:47									#25
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Another interesting note is that the net effect of morale SE changes on an individual unit also depends on the unit's existing morale. A disciplined (+0%) unit becomes Green (-12%) losing 12% of its fighting power, but a Commando (+37%) becomes Veteran (+25%) losing only one eleventh (9%) of its overall power.

Side note: Any of you got a rack of trophies from actually winning math fights in intermediate school?

	08-05-2004 01:01									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Doesn't -2 Morale SE only give a -12.5% penalty to offense, and doesn't effect defense?

Yes a -2 Morale Rating actually does equate a -1 Morale, and thus -12.5% to combat. But morale affects both offense and defense. Unlike Planet Rating which is offense only.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac And after you build Children's Creches the negative morale effects disappear, and you still get a +2 morale bonus, meaning you'll defend and attack with a +12.5% morale bonus, and also meaning that factions with a negative morale SE will have stronger units than a faction with 0 Morale SE, who will have disciplined morale units in a base with Children's Creche. That's at least what my tests showed... (Sucks for Spartans, whose Morale bonus isn't very useful anymore... )

The actual text out of the manual regarding Childrens Creche is:
Children’s Creche. Base receives +2 on growth scale and +2 on efficiency scale. All negative morale effects are cancelled for units in base square; instead such units receive a +1 morale modifier. Reduces base’s vulnerability to enemy mind control.

As far as the +++ go with a creche that does tend to complicate things further.
And Spartans are better off in a offensive position where creches don't matter anyway

	08-05-2004 01:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp Yes a -2 Morale Rating actually does equate a -1 Morale, and thus -12.5% to combat. But morale affects both offense and defense. Unlike Planet Rating which is offense only.

Have you actually tested this? I get different results.

quote: The actual text out of the manual regarding Childrens Creche is:

That text is inaccurate AFAIK. There's a bug - at least I consider it one - that gives, simply said, units of a faction with negative morale SE double the morale bonus they should get.

	08-05-2004 01:22									#28
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quote: Originally posted by anarchie Another interesting note is that the net effect of morale SE changes on an individual unit also depends on the unit's existing morale. A disciplined (+0%) unit becomes Green (-12%) losing 12% of its fighting power, but a Commando (+37%) becomes Veteran (+25%) losing only one eleventh (9%) of its overall power.

And Elites would lose 13% going to Commando, go figure what they were thinking when they setup that scheme.

quote: Originally posted by anarchie Side note: Any of you got a rack of trophies from actually winning math fights in intermediate school?

The only thing I remember about High School/Jr High is wanting a high-powered rifle and a bell tower. Thank god for college. I think I'm normal now....kinda

	08-05-2004 01:48									#29
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Maniac,

I am at work anytime I post so opening up SMAC to test my theories isn't an option And when am at home I currently don't have a net connection.

So I don't know, but the SE chart definately lists a -2 Morale Rating as a -1 actual Morale
But the text being incorrect doesn't suprise me in the slightest.

Last edited by livid imp on 08-05-2004 at 01:57

	08-05-2004 07:56									#30
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If the Empath Guild is in-game, it's a chance.

Depends on how the Mod 3 falls.
If I Scen Edit and give myself BioGenetics,
the beeline goes:
(Biogenetics)
Cent Eco
SocPsy
SotHB
EthCalc
CentEmp

On a Random Start, this beeline becomes unprofitable.
If you're sure no-one else is teching the same way...
SocPsy - CentEco - EthCalc - GeneSpl - SotHB - CentEmp

In my current PBEM, I'm doing El Tactic Boringo.
Tech straight to IA, get Doc:Flex off my spartan buddy, start expanding to faraway continents.