30-04-2004 07:56									#1
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OK, so the situation is that one of the group fighters has pissed off the group cleric

(I person sort of understand what the fighter was doing, but the cleric is pissed and came to me since I am the most rules knowledgable)

so the cleric wants to tell the fighter than he is blessing him, but than actually curse him

will there be a will save? (I beleive that it would be quickly noticeable (especially if arcane sight can notice if soemthing is divine or arcane (our current enemies are arcane)))

Jon Miller

	30-04-2004 08:45									#2
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Geenrally no. You have to try and resist a spell in order to get a save. If you "drop your defenses" and let someone cast a spell on you that you trust, then you get no save, even if it turns out that the spell was bad. Especially in cases like these (you can make an argument that anyone would try and dodge a fireball- that can't be disguised- but fake healing works).

As for whether the fighter notices, that's totally up to the DM, and depends on the way he's working magic in the world, the fighter's magical knowledge, how subtle the cleric is... I can easily see on one hand the fighter recognizing the different words and feeling a malign presense if his Wisdom is high, or alternatively having a big charade where he thinks he's blessed and the GM quietly subtracts 2 from all his stated attack rolls.

	30-04-2004 09:15									#3
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would the difference between arcane and divine magic be apparent to the other spell casters? (when they look at the character to try and determine what is wrong)

does it matter that the fighter is actually a ranger (and at level 6 has some divine magic himself)

Jon Miller

	30-04-2004 09:45									#4
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(the curses he is thinking of using has noticeable affects)

so sometihng being wrong would soon be apparent, and there is a Druid who would probably be ok with removing it (I am the mage, and I don't have any means to remove a curse yet)

Jon Miller

	30-04-2004 09:55									#5
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Yes there is a will save.

The reason I say this is that the body itself will react to the negative magic being cast.

It reacts to positive magic in the opposite way and accepts the magic.

ACK!

	30-04-2004 10:17									#6
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that was the way that I was leaning

that you react even if you don't know that the spell is being cast, and that yuo have to choose to react otherwise

maybe I will leave this open for a bit longer, and than perhaps post it on the wizards site

JHon Miller

	30-04-2004 10:29									#7
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Most of what you're saying is really up to the DM. I'd think that Spellcraft would be the applicable skill for determining divine vs. arcane origin, but generally that's a lot easier to tell as it is being cast (is it a prayer, or weird chanting? Are there arm motions invovled). Afterwards... hard to say. Maybe asking the Wizards site wouldn't be a bad idea.

	30-04-2004 11:00									#8
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I know that I can tell while it is being cast (spellcraft)

and knowledge might be applicable for afterwards (all of us magic users have high arcana and religion knowledge)

Arcane Sight
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
This spell makes your eyes glow blue and allows you to see magical auras within 120 feet of you. The effect is similar to that of a detect magic spell, but arcane sight does not require concentration and discerns aura location and power more quickly.
You know the location and power of all magical auras within your sight. An aura’s power depends on a spell’s functioning level or an item’s caster level, as noted in the description of the detect magic spell. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + one-half caster level for a nonspell effect.)
If you concentrate on a specific creature within 120 feet of you as a standard action, you can determine whether it has any spellcasting or spell-like abilities, whether these are arcane or divine (spell-like abilities register as arcane), and the strength of the most powerful spell or spell-like ability the creature currently has available for use.
Arcane sight can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

Detect Magic
Divination
Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras.
2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + half caster level for a nonspell effect.)
Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.
Aura Strength: An aura’s power depends on a spell’s functioning spell level or an item’s caster level. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.
————————— Aura Power —————————
Spell or Object Faint Moderate Strong Overwhelming
Functioning spell (spell level) 3rd or lower 4th–6th 7th–9th 10th+ (deity-level)
Magic item (caster level) 5th or lower 6th–11th 12th–20th 21st+ (artifact)
Lingering Aura: A magical aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a magic item). If detect magic is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power:
Original Strength Duration of Lingering Aura
Faint 1d6 rounds
Moderate 1d6 minutes
Strong 1d6x10 minutes
Overwhelming 1d6 days
Outsiders and elementals are not magical in themselves, but if they are summoned, the conjuration spell registers.
Each round, you can turn to detect magic in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Detect magic can be made permanent with a permanency spell.


Jon Miller

	30-04-2004 11:02									#9
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well, I guess if it was a curse (which is detectable) than it would be known to be divine, since arcane casters don't get curse (I beleive)

JOn Miller

	30-04-2004 12:34									#10
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Arcane sight will tell you that it is a curse, yes, and also that it is the result of divine magic.

The Will save vs the curse must be left to the DM, but if he rolls a dice when he thinks he's getting blessed, then won't he get suspicious.

BUT!

The somatic component of Bless and Curse should be easily distingueshed by any character with better than animal INT, especially if they have heard the cleric cast these common spells before.

-Jam

	30-04-2004 13:48									#11
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Just kill the goddam uppity cleric! See what his god does then!

	30-04-2004 19:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Arcane sight will tell you that it is a curse, yes, and also that it is the result of divine magic. The Will save vs the curse must be left to the DM, but if he rolls a dice when he thinks he's getting blessed, then won't he get suspicious. BUT! The somatic component of Bless and Curse should be easily distingueshed by any character with better than animal INT, especially if they have heard the cleric cast these common spells before. -Jam

Hell, he could take out a die now and roll the save, keeping the other guy from getting suspicious.

ACK!

	30-04-2004 22:35									#13
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The cleric doesn't sound like a Good character, eh?

	30-04-2004 22:43									#14
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If I were the DM I would treat it like a sneak attack. Thus, they would get their save -2... Also, if the spell were to fail the character would know that the cleric tried to mess with them. If it were to succeed the character may not know, wisdom check -2. I would then deduct XP from the cursed victim if they change their style of play; play in character!

	30-04-2004 22:44									#15
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maybe even a Charisma check on the caster to see if the vic would believe him

	01-05-2004 00:20									#16
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see

here is what I am thinking

if a group attacked a high mage, and let's say one mage from the group sneaked behind, whlie invisible and cast a silent sleep spell or some such thing (feeblemind) while the opponent didn't notice

would there be a will save?

I think that there would, and therefore we know that one of two things is true

either that harmluss effects default to will save, or effects default to will save

now assume that the party is sneaking up on a dragon, and the wizard has a silenced and stilled heroism available

would the heroism cause a will save? if so than spells default to doing the save, if not than the default is that nonharmfull effects don't cause a save

from reading the book I beleive that it is that harmful effects don't default to save, and unharmful effects do default to save

(BTW what has occured is that our cleric is a lawful neutral elemental archon follower of Krossoth, therefore he has 3 mephit underlings available to him, apparently 1 was coming to us through a summoning circle in the dungeon we are fighting through and our ranger decided that it might be dangerous and interupted it's summoning (these summoning circles took 3 rounds to summon a creature, the other one in the room was summoning a high level demon), I think that the ranger was reasonable (since we were not told that the mephit was an ally, but the cleric is plotting revenge)

Jon Miller

	01-05-2004 21:56									#17
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Summoning a high level demon?

	02-05-2004 05:31									#18
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Archon summoning demon? Was he bored or just looking for trouble that day?

-Jam

	02-05-2004 12:05									#19
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no

a high level demon was coming through the other summoning circle

I am betting that the Mage we are fighting was summoning it

Jon Miller