30-04-2004 20:02									#1
	Strategic resources Put an end to popups!

Can someone please tell me what would happen to the resources if you change the terrain? For instance, if a jungle square contains rubber and you clear the jungle, do you lose that resource?

And what about the reverse? Has anyone ever "discovered" a resource when changing the terrain?

Thanks for all your help!

	30-04-2004 20:04									#2
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No, for the purposes of resource placement the tile is forever considered to have its original traits.

	30-04-2004 23:41									#3
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Um, unless I'm misinformed, the current terrain is considered when determining where a 'new' resource goes? I've never seen any turn up in the 'wrong' type of terrain, for sure.

	01-05-2004 01:01									#4
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Where a resource appears depends on what the tile was at the start of the game (ie.4000BC). This applies even for resources that appear later in the game (rubber, aluminium, etc). So for example, say at the start of the game, when the prog. generates the map, it decides that there will be a rubber resource in a particular jungle tile. If you were to clear that tile, converting it into grassland, the rubber will still appear on that grassland tile later in the game when you (or the AI) research the req. techs.

The only time when current terrain is a factor is when one resource is exhausted and pops up in another tile (but to be fair, the only time that's ever happened to me was for iron, which cannot pop on a 'cleared' tile).

	01-05-2004 01:23									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Um, unless I'm misinformed, the current terrain is considered when determining where a 'new' resource goes? I've never seen any turn up in the 'wrong' type of terrain, for sure.

Yup you are mistaken. Clear jungles before rubber or clear marsh before oil and you still get that resource.

If you are not sure, gen a tiny map and give yourself the stuff to test it out.

	01-05-2004 02:16									#6
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I think what he meant was will a "new" source appear. I know that Rubber doesn't run out, but oil....

When one source is used up, another appears on the map somewhere else. Can a sourse of oil appear on a swap tile that has been cleared into a grassland?

	01-05-2004 04:58									#7
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If that is the question, then it does not change anything. I cannot remember a single case of a resource depletion and a respawn in C3C. I use to see them often in the early days of CivIII.

I can't remember any from late PTW either. Anyway they can respawn in any tile that had the proper traits at map gen time.

Horses and Rubber do not deplete.

	01-05-2004 05:06									#8
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I cannot remember a single case of a resource depletion and a respawn in C3C. I use to see them often in the early days of CivIII.

I've definitely seen it. In AU501 I had a Saltpeter resource respawn in the middle of my territory....don't know where it disappeared from though.

	01-05-2004 07:34									#9
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I've seen Quarry disappear too. This was in the Middle Ages Conquest, I believe.

	01-05-2004 17:18									#10
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I took vxma1's suggestion, and did a test scen - turns out I was not mistaken. New resources, by which I indeed mean ones popping up to compensate the depletion of old ones, turn up based on the current terrain, not the original one. That's too say, a resource allowed on Forest but not on Grassland or Plains will turn up on newly planted Forests, but not on Grassland/Plains that was Forest at generation.

The testing also seems to indicate that there's something screwy with the disappearance ratios - I set it to two, but the resources only depleted like every ten turns.

Testing done on C3C 1.22.

	02-05-2004 01:50									#11
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In my last game, I had a spare Iron sudenly pop into existance in my territory. Don't know for sure exactly where it came from, but I'm guessing there's a good chance it came from the Germans because the next time I bothered to check the trade advisor, they were missing it.

	02-05-2004 15:26									#12
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I have definately twice had iron vanish and re-appear elsewhere on the map.
That is the only resource I have seen expire so far in alot of games of C3C.

	02-05-2004 17:56									#13
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I have only seen uranium deplete and reappear in C3C. The disappearance likelihood of all resources appears to be greatly diminished.

	05-05-2004 04:09									#14
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I also had SP deplete and reappear in AU 501.

	07-05-2004 02:03									#15
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As mentioned, my testing seemed to indicate that the risk of depletion is much lower than it should be according to the disappearance ratio. Should we be reporting it as a bug?

	08-05-2004 02:24									#16
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Depends. You'd have to know the Firaxian intentions...
It may be like the 'tech rate' figure in the map editor, where the figures were twice as high as the help said they should be. At least, on last check. Some time ago

	11-05-2004 20:40									#17
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If I remember correctly, the disappearance ratio is the chance if the resource to disappear. That means if the ratio indicate 20%, there is a 20% chance each turn this will happen. But it doesn't have to mean the resource will disappear every 5th turn. Teoritically, it might never happen during a whole game.

	11-05-2004 21:20									#18
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In my current SP game, I waiting and hoping for some resources. My island has no luxary, no iron, and no saltpeter; talk about bad luck.

	11-05-2004 21:32									#19
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You can look at the disappearance/reappearance probabilities in the editor for the various resources.

A value of "0" means that it never depletes. Horses and rubber are set to "0". I can understand it for rubber, since rubber needs to reappear in jungles or forests, and their often isn't any of that terrain late in the game.

A value of x (where x is not 0) is the 1/x probablity that a single resource will move (disappear/reappear) each turn. Iron is 400, so each iron resource has a 1/400 = 0.25% prob. of moving every turn. Uranium is 100, so it has a 1/100 = 1% chance of moving each turn. That's why uranium seems to disappear much quicker than iron.

Oh, and to correct something that was claimed earlier...

A resource that depletes must reappear on terrain that currently matches it's requirements. I think if there is no such empty terrain on the map, the resource is gone forever.

	12-05-2004 01:13									#20
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Thanks for the information Woody.

	12-05-2004 01:31									#21
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On the horses/rubber issue: they're the only renewable strategic resources.

The game effectively assumes sustainable exploitation of all renewable resources. Iron, coal, aluminum, uranium, oil and saltpeter are all non-renewable mined resources, in that a deposit is found and exploited until it's usefulness is gone, then another deposit has to be found. Horses and rubber can be cultivated.

	12-05-2004 01:46									#22
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quote: A value of x (where x is not 0) is the 1/x probablity that a single resource will move (disappear/reappear) each turn. Iron is 400, so each iron resource has a 1/400 = 0.25% prob. of moving every turn. Uranium is 100, so it has a 1/100 = 1% chance of moving each turn. That's why uranium seems to disappear much quicker than iron.

In my test scen, the disppearance ratio for Oil was set to 2. Despite this, the resource only depleted something like every tenth turn, consistently over over eight hundred turns. This clearly suggests that something is haywire, but I cannot exclude that there is some sort of ceiling, skewing results with very low disappearance ratios, while leaving more normal ones as they should.