01-05-2004 03:02									#31
	Increase the size of your Attachments

D@mn. Good catch unortho. Trip knows that I am the MoI, so it would have been easy to check this out. And ya, all 5 things I have uploaded are for this demo game... Too late to worry about that now IMO, but rest assured I will be adding a random gibberish to the front of all my filenames now.

If we actually susspect that people are doing this, then perhaps we can use it to our advantage. Lets see, I can upload a few things such as "barb takes out our settler", "Volcano erupts taking out a scout" and "free city from goodie hut" over the next couple of turns. How about a nice SGL?

The BS with Trip I have come to expect as I was one who posted a lot against him getting access to RP forum, and I included MANY things he had done to loose my personal trust as well as the trust of the team members and the trust of many people at demo#1. It took him about 2 weeks, but he confronted me in a chat once he was allowed access and read my posts. Bad scene. There are a few people I would not help if I saw them bleeding on the side of the road, and he is one. And comming from the ex-peace corps hippy engineer (who usually votes republican, so Arny keep saying HI ) that is something exceptional. My advice is to just let him ramble on, as his mouth will cause him to self distruct sooner or later.

As to Arn's idea above, I like it. Say something along the lines of "Trip informed us that he is receiving screen shots of the f11 screen along with a tracking of the team scores in our game. We think that the idea of sharing such basic info about the course of the other game is interesting and would like to be included in receiving such info about game 2. Would someone volunteer to either send it or post such info?" Gets the dig in about Trip, and also gives us the knowledge of what is going on in that game. I know that if I read this, my first queston would be "how is trip getting this info?" which is what we want people to start thinking about.

--GK

	01-05-2004 03:16									#32
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I appreciate the effort that Unortho has put in here and I appreciate the ingenuity, but it's a band-aid solution to an unsolvable problem.

If someone, Trip or otherwise, were truly willing to go fishing around in our upload areas, he's not going to have any compunction against trying to snoop into our private forum. Snooping into our private forum would actually be EASIER than guessing file names in our upload areas. If he or another lacked the scruples to stop them from doing one, they aren't going to have any problem doing the other.

As such, while renaming files in your upload may feel heartwarming, it's not actually increasing your level of protection by very much. The sad truth is that getting into any private forum on Apolyton is a relatively simple task according to a few people who I have either seen do it or have talked to me about it. In fact, I had a very lengthy IRC chat once with a particular individual that despite "leaving" a DG on Apolyton and its CivGroup, was still able to routinely access its private forum and told me that method was actually quite simple. He even posted in the private forum from time to time, despite not having CivGroup access or moderator powers.

At the end of the day, however, I honestly don't assess Trip to be the type of person to be snooping through upload areas or breaking into our private forum. He's an arrogant S.O.B., to be sure, but I doubt that behavior from him. I find it far more likely that if he is getting basic F11 and screenshot info, directly or indirectly, he's getting it from chatting with members of other teams, whether PAL, CDG, or GWT (unlikely to be the French team).

That is why my concern is not that Trip is getting the information. I could really care less, quite frankly. My concern is that Trip would be providing de facto advice to one or more of our rivals in return for the information (by making commentary on the information... noting things that these teams may not be able to realize on their own). I don't know that Trip's doing that either, but I'd like to head it off at the pass before it even happens.

Frankly, if Trip really were to be doing that, we could always return the favor by helping CFC and other teams in the other game in a similar manner. I'd far prefer that we just outlaw the practice before anyone even engages in it.

	01-05-2004 03:45									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This is an interesting thing. I was unaware of it, but for the games I'm involved in, I have sometimes used Dutch names just by coincidence. Naming your picture in another language works too.

Aidun

	01-05-2004 04:39									#34
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I do know for a fact that a bug exists (that's supposed to be quite simplistic) that allows a user to gain all access to the private forums on this bored. A fellow on the Human Hive team of the ACTDG resigned from the game when it was discovered he had this knowledge. Granted, I have no knowledge of how this bug works.

I think that, when it all comes down to it, it's all about trust. Trip, yes, isn't the greatest person in the world, but I have to believe he'd be honest enough to respect our privacy. Of course, knowing him, he probably blew all of that chat last night out of his ***. He probably has enough intelligence to not screw himself over if he's participating in illegal clandestine activity.

For safety's sake, though, I'll start randomizing my filenames a bit more.

	01-05-2004 05:40									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Octavian X I do know for a fact that a bug exists (that's supposed to be quite simplistic) that allows a user to gain all access to the private forums on this bored. A fellow on the Human Hive team of the ACTDG resigned from the game when it was discovered he had this knowledge. Granted, I have no knowledge of how this bug works.

Here I go skirting around the issue of what team I know someone who knew how to do this and where I've seen it done and then you come straight out and say what team.

Fine, I'll disclose the information:

Kody, a former member of the Human Hive team in the ACDG, is one of those who knows how to do this and claims it is incredibly simplistic. Basically, he can enter any private forum anywhere on the site without much effort at all. From what little he's said on the subject, it's a bug related to the one that allows you to view images within a private forum simply by copying and pasting the URL used to access by someone who already had access inside the forum.

Kody would occassionally post in the Human Hive forum despite no longer being a member of the team, typically being scolded by Tassadar and Goonie (the mods of the game) when he did so and having anything pertinent edited out sometimes. They didn't seem to mind if he commented on historical things, since he used to be the turnplayer for the team and talking about history was fine, but other stuff the mods objected to.

I also spent a long time talking with Kody in IRC about the subject because, frankly, I was concerned about the potential implications to other games. He's far from the only person that we've noticed who has figured this out, but he's actually a VERY honest person... probably one of the most honest I've met online. When he says that he never used that ability against the enemies of that team in the game, I actually believe him. He's been willing to talk about it and about the problem it creates for the team-based DG's on the site.

From what Kody told me, it would be a rediculously easy task for someone to break into this forum if they knew how. Once in, they can view any posts in the forum and even POST, despite not having official access.

I seem to recall that there was some incident with GhengisFarb and the PTWDG2 with something like this as well? I wasn't around for that, so I'm only going on hearsay with that. There are other cases as well.

The point is... it's quite possible to do. What this leaves us with is that if someone REALLY wants to cheat in such a manner, they can. No amount of renaming files in your upload folder is going to stop them. Of course, it's entirely possible that someone could be digging through upload folders because they don't KNOW about this issue, but if they're resourceful enough and determined enough, I imagine they could do it (especially if the issue is similar to that previously discussed around here with links in signitures).

Ultimately, the only thing that prevents this behavior is the honor system and busting the balls of anyone caught doing it.

	01-05-2004 06:54									#36
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Trip contacted me privately about this, since apparently miccofl talked to him:

quote: Trip> did you go talk with miccofl? Arnelos> yes, and mostly to clean up an issue E_T brought up with him Trip> what's the problem Arnelos> you, actually Trip> I assumed as much Trip> with E_T involved Trip> and after what miccofl told me Arnelos> heh Arnelos> what did miccofl tell you? Trip> he told me you guys were worried about me teaching other teams my talents Arnelos> ah, I'm the one who passed that on to him Trip> what did E_T say then? Arnelos> E_T was worked up about how you could possibly be getting what info you were getting Trip> did miccofl tell you? Arnelos> he did not tell me, but apparently he mentioned Micaelis Rex to E_T Arnelos> I didn't even know he was in our game Trip> okay Trip> he's on CDG Arnelos> ah Trip> he's talking to me in MSN right now about the thread I posted Arnelos> ah Arnelos> I think the entire issue can be killed if we just have a public reporting of the two games' running score tallies in the U.N. forum Arnelos> problem solved Arnelos> People can then be paranoid if they want, but as long as everyone is honest with that, we're good. Trip> have you seen my thread? Arnelos> I saw that you posted a thread, but I couldn't see any images Trip> odd Arnelos> I seem to be the only one with that issue, though Trip> are you a registered member? Arnelos> yes Trip> yes, that's strange Arnelos> I'll try again later Arnelos> anyhow Trip> MRex and I traded scores and top 5 cities lists Arnelos> ah Trip> he wanted to know more, but I told him to suck on a banana Arnelos> lol Trip> to be honest Trip> I don't care if everyone hates me Arnelos> The only issue to me, as I mentioned to miccofl, was whether analysis of said information was being exchanged, which would make someone a de facto contributor to another team. Trip> or if they think I'm a cheater or a liar or whatever Arnelos> As long as that's not happening, I don't care Trip> I don't want to have any impact on that game and I never did Trip> I just like to be able to know what's going on that's why I'm the EYE after all Arnelos> Trip> CDG will probably die either way Trip> even if they had my info Arnelos> Actually, you should know that most of those who have commented on the subject have staunchly defended you from the suggestion that you could be cheating. Trip> I suppose that's one positive thing Trip> might hurt my chance for reelection :P Arnelos> lol Arnelos> E_T has been a bit worried, I will admit. Arnelos> E_T was worried that the "leak" might be one of our team members Trip> he's always grasping for straws when it comes to me Trip> most of what I said was just trying to get his goat Trip> and it worked it seems Arnelos> I noticed Arnelos> with miccofl, I just want to cut off the issue of advice to teams in other games before it comes up Trip> you don't have to worry about that Arnelos> good Trip> I just like to know what's going on Arnelos> that's what I figured Trip> even though MRex has asked me to assist him Trip> but I refused Arnelos> ok Trip> while I like knowing things I will NEVER impact any games Trip> PTWDG, ISDG, etc. Arnelos> The issue I brought up amongst our people was that there's a lot we could do to help CFC if it came to that Trip> haha Arnelos> It seems that our C3C ISDG has stolen a number of CFC's better members Trip> I'd almost welcome that, might make them more competitive :P Trip> yes, it's quite a shame Arnelos> Anyhow, that seems to be taken care of. My suggestion would be for us to suggest a public posting of scores from each game Trip> yes Trip> what I posted was the scores and top cities list from last turn (38) Arnelos> ok Arnelos> point is, that way we can get that info openly without having to mine members of other teams for it Trip> yes Arnelos> and besides... only certain teams will even know what to do with it anyhow Trip> I figured asking you guys directly would be a bad idea, and it seems I've been proven right Arnelos> lol Arnelos> People don't trust you. That much is true. Trip> of course Trip> no one has ever trusted me since the beginning Trip> that's the point Arnelos> lol Arnelos> I don't know about THAT. Trip> oh certainly

The conversation continued into the history of the PTWDG after this point. Of interest is that Trip did mention that he believes he was WAY overrated by many in the PTWDG. He mentioned that GS had an entire thread dedicated to him where he says they vastly overestimated his talents and knowledge of the game, something he says he wish he knew in retrospect (not that it mattered to how Lux Invicta went down, of course).

He also talked about the original SPDG and the PTW ISDG for a bit.

The conversation then strayed to teams in the C3C ISDG, most notably PAL. Trip said that F-P had warned him AWAY FROM the PAL team, but Trip joined the ladder itself anyhow. He claims his reasoning was that he was bored of the pace of his PBEM games on Poly and that he wanted to stretch his multiplayer war strategies by learning from the ladder people who they fight. We talked for a bit about ladder-style strategies and recent games in which we have used these strategies against our opponents or seem them used by others.

That was about it.

	01-05-2004 06:59									#37
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In Summary:

quote: godking> summary? Arnelos> Trip's source was MRex from CDG Arnelos> Trip claims that while MRex asked for advice, Trip did not give it Arnelos> Trip and MRex traded F11 and score info Arnelos> Trip would agree that we could handle score posting openly Arnelos> which would close the issue

	01-05-2004 07:20									#38
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Nice. MRex is a young one (17 IIRC), so we chalk up his indescretion to inexperience. Our punishment of him will be we jsut kill his team off.

	01-05-2004 08:43									#39
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I had talked to Micco about Trip, before Arnie had talked to Trip, this is the edited for spam log

quote: Session Start: Fri Apr 30 16:47:32 2004 Session Ident: miccofl [16:48] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> Miccofl, I need to talk to you, about some things of concern in the C3CISDG game [16:48] [miccofl> OK, give me about 5 min to finish up my waiting PBEM's [16:48] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> k [16:48] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> just say E_T and I'll come running [16:49] [miccofl> ok [16:55] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> here [16:55] [miccofl> Yeah, I just noticed you said C3C [16:55] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> O.k., an incident happened last night that is of almost grave concern to our team [16:56] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> Trip was rambling about info that he had gotten about our scores, number of cities as a few other things [16:56] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> as=and [16:57] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> he might have gotten some of this info from people on other teams or maybe even on our team [16:58] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> it might even go as far as "hacking" privet uploaded screen shots [16:58] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> thing is, we don't know, but we are very concerned [16:58] [miccofl> His knowlege of what is going on in the game sometimes is uncanny, but if you ask him how he got the information he will always show you exactly how he figured it out [16:58] [miccofl> it unnerved me at first [16:59] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> we are making efforts to further secure our files, but I wanted you to know all of this [16:59] [miccofl> he would say that a tile in the fog has such and such - and sure enough if you blew it up 800% you could indeed see it [17:00] [miccofl> you are thinking he had access to your private area? [17:00] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> for one thing, you all are in an entirely different game, so how he's getting this info is completely beyond us or even why he would want it right now [17:01] [miccofl> He wants to start a thread at the UN that displays scores and other info that is available to all teams so that those who may be watching may understand what is going on [17:01] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> we know that he doens't have access, but we have uncovered a way of accessing files that were assumed to be secure, which also include screenshots [17:01] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> it might not be him, he might be getting this info from someone else [17:02] [miccofl> check that link he just posted [17:02] [miccofl> f*cker reads my mind [17:02] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> he had originally wanted to have access to our forum, as we are on different games at the moment, but was flat refuced [17:03] [miccofl> no $hit [17:03] [miccofl> he must be a real pistol in RL [17:04] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> he was wanting to "observe" and might be obsessed enough to have made successful attempts to hack some of our stuff, which is entirely against the rules [17:04] [miccofl> damn, I wish my logging was working - stupid Trillian [17:04] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> I'm getting a log of this [17:05] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> or I should [17:05] [miccofl> he just posted in our C3C channel that he got info from MRex [17:05] * E_T[APO-hangingout] goes to check.... [17:05] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> what was the Info.....hehe [17:06] [miccofl> he got scores and top 5 cities only [17:06] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> yes, this is being logged.... I'll send it to you, if you want later [17:06] [miccofl> in other words the left side of F11 [17:08] [miccofl> OMG he just posted our entire F11 [17:08] [miccofl> so maybe he did get theirs [17:08] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> not just the whole thing, because they way he was talking last night, bragging if you will, was that your team, beats everyones GNP/Manuf/Prod in either game right now [17:09] [miccofl> we probably do [17:09] [miccofl> we had an awesome start [17:09] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> the thing is, if this info is getting to you all, about our game, we at Apolyton would like to possibly get the same, about yours [17:10] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> that was one things that we discussed, last night [17:10] [miccofl> OK http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...p?p=73899#73899 [17:11] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> He's an Arrogant SOB, IMHO, and wouldn't be in a Consular position if it wasn't for there being more than one of them, to offset him [17:12] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> but he is also good [17:12] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> but then, I think he just posted information that was sensitive to your team, too [17:13] [miccofl> and logged off [17:13] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> Hold on, those numbers are fake [17:14] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> 2170 GNP?? [17:14] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> 878 Manuf [17:14] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> 2304 Prod [17:15] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> I don't think that you all had number that high, even before the war, in PTW ISDG game [17:15] [miccofl> hang on, going to put ours and what he posted side by side [17:15] [miccofl> phew, yep they are fake [17:16] [miccofl> looks good though [17:16] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> likely, the blue numbers are fake, but not the black [17:16] [miccofl> the whole panel is a copy and paste job [17:17] [miccofl> I make the F1 lady say some really weird $hit sometimes [17:17] [miccofl> and you have seen my shots from the PTWISDG [17:18] [miccofl> he's picking up a few of my tricks [17:18] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> Oh, you should see the RealityPBEM(tm) over at MZO, especially Whitebandit's stuff [17:19] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> http://forums.mzocentral.net/index.php?showtopic=3086 . [snip] . [17:35] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> anyways, I thought that you should know our concerns and all [17:36] [miccofl> that's good [17:37] [miccofl> the idea of trading info between us - between games is intriguing [17:37] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> and also, to keep an eye on Trip..... [17:37] [miccofl> an eye? I need to plant a device and track his ass [17:37] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> thing is, it's not really supposed to happen, that kind of trade, scores is one thing, but more than that is just a little bit too much [17:38] [miccofl> what info would we want to exchange and what info are we allowed to exchange [17:38] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> but I'll let you talk to Arnelos about that, if you want [17:39] [miccofl> I would like to discuss it first with one of the admins to see if there is an issue there and then discuss it with my team [17:40] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> k, I'll get arnelos here to see what we are willing to have exchanged, if it is allowed [17:44] [E_T[APO-hangingout]> and I'll leave you with him..... [17:44] [miccofl> ok Session Close: Fri Apr 30 17:45:08 2004

I don't know what Arnie and Micco said, in their private chat

E_T

	01-05-2004 09:08									#40
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My chat with miccofl, earlier this evening (after E_T and before Trip contacted me):

quote: miccofl> Hello Arnelos> hey miccofl> did E_T bring you up to speed on what we were discussing? Arnelos> he just gave me the logs miccofl> I can't log for some reason - probably need to reinstall stupid Trillian Arnelos> I think E_T overstates the case for worry about certain things, but there ARE some things to discuss miccofl> anyhow, what information are we looking to exchange, what information are we allowed to exchange and should this be allowed at all? miccofl> we are in a very greay area miccofl> gray Arnelos> Personally, I'm not in favor of information exchange unless it's handled through the U.N. forum. Arnelos> I don't like idea of individual teams being able to exhange info and potentially even advice (inevitable) unless everyone does it in the open. Arnelos> See, my concern is not that we would know about your game or that you would know about ours. I'm more concerned about members of a team in one game providing de facto advice and contributions to a team in the other Arnelos> There are several cases where that could easily get out of hand: GWT and GCA, for one. miccofl> understood and agreed Arnelos> So I'd like to tackle the issue in the U.N. forum, cut it off at the pass. If we want the two games to each post scores and such, that's cool. EVEYRONE gets to see them. Advice and de facto contributions to other teams, on the other hand, should be barred. miccofl> what about the fake 2nd screenshot Arnelos> So as for Trip, the issue to me is not so much that he's getting scores and F11 screens from our game (as he specifically bragged). Despite being a bit shady, I could really care less. The issue is whether he was returning commentary for receipt of that information. miccofl> have you seen this yet? http://cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/...p?p=73899#73899 Arnelos> we just saw it if that's what Trip posted from your game Arnelos> looked like jokes Arnelos> then it was pulled miccofl> pulled? Arnelos> I can't see any images Arnelos> can you? miccofl> yes Arnelos> odd Arnelos> I don't see anything Arnelos> but text miccofl> site is slow Arnelos> I really don't care all that much. As I said, the F11 screens aren't really my concern. It's the analysis that's my concern. Arnelos> If certain teams in our game or certain teams in your game are incapable of doing very good analysis of that information on their own, neither of us want people from the other game who can helping them out. Arnelos> or any other level of information sharing and analysis Arnelos> that's really my only beef Arnelos> *Personally*, I could care less about the rest miccofl> ok, let me see if I can reign him in a bit Arnelos> but about at least this issue, I just want to head it off at the pass. Arnelos> I don't know it's going on, just want to prevent it from happening.

NOTE: I only contacted miccofl because E_T had already done so himself and specifically requested that I come in. Personally, I don't think either of us should have gone to miccofl AT ALL without first consulting our own team about the issue and receiving our own team's (or at least the leadership's) green light for doing that. To be honest, I feel that in some ways we're running out ahead and doing the work of the FAM and the Consuls without their consent, though conmcb25 seemed ok with it in retrospect.

Speaking of U.N. issues, how are such issues handled on this team? I wasn't in this forum when such things were discussed before the start of the game, so please fill me in. Who on this team is responsible for taking issues to the U.N. and how are restricted in that function, if at all? Who speaks or votes on our behalf?

Since I have gone ahead and, de facto, made some team policy in asserting the issue here (again, my apologies on that... it was not my intent to be forced into doing this until the TEAM had a chance to discuss the issue internally first), it may be important for our U.N. representation to get on the ball with this issue... since a U.N. role is part of what was proposed and discussed.

Thank you.

	01-05-2004 11:43									#41
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Good God! All this for a F11 screen??? :shrug: :sigh:

	01-05-2004 14:09									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos The conversation continued into the history of the PTWDG after this point. Of interest is that Trip did mention that he believes he was WAY overrated by many in the PTWDG. He mentioned that GS had an entire thread dedicated to him where he says they vastly overestimated his talents and knowledge of the game, something he says he wish he knew in retrospect (not that it mattered to how Lux Invicta went down, of course).

And he would be full of ****.

	01-05-2004 14:11									#43
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And he would be full of ****.

Well, that's good to know.

	01-05-2004 14:17									#44
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For all the good that GS being concerned about him could have done for him. WTF that is, I don't know.

There were discussions of which teams could be threats before anyone had contact with anyone. Lux could have figured in the top 2 or 3 in that. Thinking about it, they most likely did.

Builders were not considered a threat. Nor were the Germans as they were a 'local' club. We only really figured Lux, GoW, and RP as threats if all things were equal, which they turned out not to be.

	01-05-2004 14:53									#45
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Just for my information: what in the name of the banana is the problem with exchanging the top-5 city list and the score table with someone from another game? Is this supposed to be 'classified' information somehow? Is it going to influence the other game? I don't think so.

Now, Trip didn't get this info from me but if he or anyone else would have asked me for it I wouldn't have considered this to be a 'secret'.

So what is the fuss all about?

	01-05-2004 15:55									#46
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To BF and BFM

Its not WHAT Trip did.

It HOW he did it.

Sneaking behind peoples backs to do it.

Whats after the F11 screen?

Exchanging map locations?

hack a save file?

reload a turn?

hack into our forum?

etc etc etc

Or how about a very good player from Game 2 using his knowledge of CIV 3 to help an Apoly opponent at game 1?

and Trip knows he did something wrong or else he wouldn't have tried to cover his tracks. Which he did. with us, with miccofl, and with the UN where he posted pictures of his games scores and F11 screen.

Last edited by conmcb25 on 01-05-2004 at 16:00

	01-05-2004 18:52									#47
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We only really figured Lux, GoW, and RP as threats if all things were equal, which they turned out not to be.

You got that right, GoW's nothing but a bunch of pacifistic teddy bears.

	01-05-2004 19:33									#48
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quote: Builders were not considered a threat.

Glad to see you wrote us off early

	02-05-2004 00:35									#49
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Just for my information: what in the name of the banana is the problem with exchanging the top-5 city list and the score table with someone from another game? Is this supposed to be 'classified' information somehow? Is it going to influence the other game? I don't think so. Now, Trip didn't get this info from me but if he or anyone else would have asked me for it I wouldn't have considered this to be a 'secret'. So what is the fuss all about?

My *personal* answer is that I don't see the exchanging of score and F11 information to be questionable at all... frankly, I was rather surprised when E_T reacted to THAT. My one are of concern was if advice and analysis of that information was being provided as part of the exchange. A member of a team in Game 2 providing advice and analysis for members of a team in Game 1 would make them de facto contributors to that team. A grey area, to be sure, and not cut-and-dry wrong, but something I'd like to head off at the pass before it became common practice by default.

As long as teams in one game aren't doing the work for teams in another game, I could care less what information they're sharing with each other. That said, others apparently are more worried about basic information sharing than I am. I confess I don't entirely understand it, but that seems to be beside the point.

	02-05-2004 02:21									#50
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I think that someone who is involved in Game 1 should stay out of any Game 2 business and vice versa. No information exchange between the two games, not even F11 info. I know that F11 can tell you a lot if you know how to treat it and how to get that info out of it.

Just not exchanging avoids misunderstandings and all the quarrels about using exploits and other rather irritating, but under certain circumstances, nessecary discussions. Trip may like to look around because he is curious, he just shouldn't.

Trip has but some sense of humour:

quote: Trip> he's always grasping for straws when it comes to me Trip> most of what I said was just trying to get his goat Trip> and it worked it seems

And to Arnelos: make sure you become ambassador, FAM, or consul. You are not the person to sit still and watch others doing the diplomacy work

Aidun

	02-05-2004 04:43									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun I think that someone who is involved in Game 1 should stay out of any Game 2 business and vice versa. No information exchange between the two games, not even F11 info. Aidun

My thoughts exactly. The only info we need to know and should know is :

a) when the other game is over, and ..
b) who won.

	02-05-2004 06:24									#52
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Anyone consider asking Trip straight up? I volunteer if the team wishes to. Just a thought, the mods should be able to get IP's that are accessing those pages directly...

It took this long for someone to suggest this???

Just ask the boy and press him for an answer when he gets evasive or too boastfully prideful about how he knows and you don't know how he knows.

And if he won't tell us, then move to Arnelos's proposal.

I am 95% confident that Trip isn't typing possible filenames to come up with images, saves, etc. Trip isn't the sort to do that. He'd come up with some creative and generally legal fashion to discover the information.

... the 5%, however, comes from me feeling there's a sight possibility that he's justified such behavior in some, distorted fashion in a similar fashion to how Lucky justifies his cheating.

--Togas (from Tokyo)

	02-05-2004 18:24									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun I think that someone who is involved in Game 1 should stay out of any Game 2 business and vice versa. No information exchange between the two games, not even F11 info. I know that F11 can tell you a lot if you know how to treat it and how to get that info out of it.

That automatically invalidates many of us. Not sure you really mean this.

F11 screens? That info is freely available in places such as Poly's strat forum if you look for a few minutes. Granted it shouldn't ideally be handed out, but unless it was developed in the team (as E_T's spreadsheets), then we shouldn't look at things like this as that serious.

	03-05-2004 00:14									#54
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Good God! All this for a F11 screen??? :shrug: :sigh:

	03-05-2004 00:33									#55
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Guys we should let this drop.

Trip had offline conversations with Arnelos and myself and maybe others. I think he knows now that if nothing else he was getting way to "cute" with this.

If nothing else this has made us much more aware as a team of keeping information secret. Its will make us all better OPSEC NAZIS

And it seems to have given some life to our intell efforts.

Thanks to orzmud, arnelos, and all the others who have volunteered to help.

So if this was going to happen Im glad it happened with the F11 screens, in the long term we are a better team for it.

Lets just let this one die, OK?

	03-05-2004 01:54									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Togas It took this long for someone to suggest this??? Just ask the boy and press him for an answer when he gets evasive or too boastfully prideful about how he knows and you don't know how he knows. And if he won't tell us, then move to Arnelos's proposal. I am 95% confident that Trip isn't typing possible filenames to come up with images, saves, etc. Trip isn't the sort to do that. He'd come up with some creative and generally legal fashion to discover the information. ... the 5%, however, comes from me feeling there's a sight possibility that he's justified such behavior in some, distorted fashion in a similar fashion to how Lucky justifies his cheating. --Togas (from Tokyo)

Now, Togas, I realize that you're half a world away from a more consistent internet connection and you haven't been able to read and post as much as you'd wish... but we already discussed this with Trip directly. Frankly, the reaction you've provided here is INCREDIBLY behind the curve of current events.

If you'd like, please read at least what I posted of the chatlog of the chat between Trip and myself.

	03-05-2004 03:10									#57
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 If nothing else this has made us much more aware as a team of keeping information secret. Its will make us all better OPSEC NAZIS

Great the minute we get some Nazis on the team conmcb25 is happy.