01-05-2004 14:15									#1
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I've been playing civ3 for some time and reading for as long. I have a question. I know all the strategies, all the loop hole etc. but anyone feel that the mongol civilization is now what is should be ? Think of it, they had the grandest empire of all humankind, the best archer and warrior, and the fastest warrior unit and yet, the only thing in civilization 3 they can do is being able to traverse mountain as they were grass land.

come on, I think they eserve better. I am not a mongol (I am as a matter of a fact a french canadian) but hell, they had the biggest earthly empire any humain could aspire to (even the britain).

Francis

	01-05-2004 16:19									#2
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Your complaint is that the Mongols are not overpowered? Or just that the Keshik isn't that exciting as UUs go?

	01-05-2004 19:14									#3
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I'd have to agree that the mongolian UU is quite boring, in my opinion, their UU comes too late, because by then, their expansionist trait is totally useless, and the UU advantage is not particularly useful in capturing hundreds of cities. That said, the movement ability does help in terrorizing workers, longbowmen, med. infantry, etc etc

	01-05-2004 22:13									#4
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my complaint is about the Keshik being a boring UU. They should treat all terrain as grassland and be at 5.2.2 at less. Just my humble opinion.

	01-05-2004 23:05									#5
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An attack of five might be a little much.

I've personally always felt that the Keshik should be what the Ansar Warrior is.

	01-05-2004 23:27									#6
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I guess they're a little map dependent, and so can be good on maps with lots of rough terrain.

I used to think the Spanish Conquistador was a terrible UU too....3/2/2 at Astronomy is already out of date. That is, until I experienced an AI Conq. calmly trot over forests and mountains 6 tiles into the core of my territory and capture an unguarded city!

	02-05-2004 00:57									#7
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but expansionistic suffers in mountainous terrain.


they get jipped either way

	02-05-2004 05:29									#8
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one thing good thougt, they don't need iron and cost only 60 shield. So one time I've built about 150-200 unit, waited until cavalry, upgraded them and purge the planet of the non-pure race on it

But still, they should be like the Ansar warrior like Last Conformist said.

	02-05-2004 06:58									#9
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It is the cheap cost that makes the unit.

I disagree profoundly that the unit is any less exciting than any other knight level unit. GREAT timing for a UU. Yes, your expansionist trait is done by then, what better time to trigger a GA?

With the CHEAPER knight, you also can easily build more numbers of them than your standard opponent. The mountain movement is a little map dependant, and I would like hills added to that ability, but other than that the Mongols are one of my preferred civs at the end of the day.

Then...I'm not called UnOrthOdOx for following convention...

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 02-05-2004 at 07:44

	02-05-2004 22:49									#10
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You honestly hold the Keshik to be on par with the Ansar Warrior? It does require Iron and is slower on mountains, but equal speed on hills, jungles and volcanoes, and faster on any other terrain. I'd chose the Ansar any day of the week.

Then you've got the Rider, which costs a mere 17% more, has the same movement advantages as the Ansar, and has a 50% better defense. Again, I know what I prefer.

	03-05-2004 01:37									#11
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resource dependence is a much larger weakness in c3c.

keshik is balanced. it could be better, it could be tweaked, but its reasonable as it is.

buying upgrading unit is much more costly in c3c.

	03-05-2004 15:13									#12
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I'm not saying the Keshik is bad, merely that it does not compare with the Rider or Ansar (which, IMHO, with the Sipahi make up the three best UUs in the game).

	04-05-2004 04:08									#13
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Not if the Persians go KAI on them first
Sorry, but a top-list of UU's without Persians isn't a top list

	04-05-2004 05:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx It is the cheap cost that makes the unit. I disagree profoundly that the unit is any less exciting than any other knight level unit. GREAT timing for a UU. Yes, your expansionist trait is done by then, what better time to trigger a GA? With the CHEAPER knight, you also can easily build more numbers of them than your standard opponent. The mountain movement is a little map dependant, and I would like hills added to that ability, but other than that the Mongols are one of my preferred civs at the end of the day. Then...I'm not called UnOrthOdOx for following convention...

Meh...

6 Riders or 7 Keshiks?

I know what I'd choose... in a heartbeat.

	04-05-2004 18:23									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I'm not saying the Keshik is bad, merely that it does not compare with the Rider or Ansar (which, IMHO, with the Sipahi make up the three best UUs in the game).

Heh, lists of top UUs!

*smells heated debate*

But seriously, how can you leave out the berzerks?


Fond memories of my fur-clad (and probably rather smelly) vikings charging down at the prissy french musketeers....

	04-05-2004 21:48									#16
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On land, Berserks doesn't offer too much of an advantage over Medievals, since it you're going to go slow, you can bring along a pile of Trebuchets for the shields you save, and attack weakened defenders instead.

And to maximize the usefulness of their amphibious abilities, the conditions must be just right - it's a bit too context-dependent for my tastes.

The Immortal would be in for the fourth slot in my book. It rules the ancient age, no matter what numbermongering Legionary aficionados might say.

	04-05-2004 22:26									#17
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Sipahi is indeed the best - if you can get it. You need both Horses and Saltpeter. Immortals just need Iron, which is the most crucial resource anyway. Sipahi used to be my favorite, but ever since C3C and its confounded resource scarcity, I have started to prefer the Persians.

Likewise with the Knight UU's. I rarely get both Iron and Horses now so any UU that eliminates one of them is a good bet. Even makes the Indians worth a look.

Immortal is a 30 shield Med Inf available early in the Ancient era. You can cripple your neighbors before they have a chance to grow strong. Yes, they're slow but their reasonably high defense will wither most counter-attacks. Bring along a couple Spearmen for fodder. At the time it is available, most other civs will be defending with fortified Spearmen in towns: 4 to 2.5 odds - not bad. Compare to Sipahi attacking fortified Muskets in cities: 8 to 7 odds.

	04-05-2004 22:50									#18
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Yes, they're slow but their reasonably high defense will wither most counter-attacks.

Tell that to Vox Controli... *snicker*

	05-05-2004 00:27									#19
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Rarely get both Iron and Horses? I've not lacked either by the early medieval era since, well, Vanilla.

	05-05-2004 00:46									#20
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quote: Tell that to Vox Controli... *snicker*

I wasn't around then, but from what I've seen, that statement above is just too true. Spearmen are a nessecity for all SoDs in the early game

	05-05-2004 00:52									#21
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Gallic Swordsmen are the best UU. I like them even more than Immortals because the extra mobility is so powerful when used properly.

I have a bunch of detailed posts about why the GS (and the Celts) are so good over at CFC in this thread. You can read my posts over there for my slant on things, I'd rather not have to type it all up again.

	05-05-2004 01:46									#22
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Yep. Gallic Swordman are #1

I'ld put the Mounted Warrior a close 2nd, even. 3 attack fast movers in the ancient...watch out.

I just feel that Agricultural is so overpowered I try to avoid them.

	05-05-2004 01:54									#23
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Is this a threadjack?

DO NOT forget hoplites, or even Numidian Mercs, 3 defense.
Or jags, pillaging everything in sight?

Or Enkidus?

My favorite is the Merc. So verstile, then the hoplite.

(And yes, I'm a builder who likes the early granery)

	05-05-2004 02:39									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Rarely get both Iron and Horses? I've not lacked either by the early medieval era since, well, Vanilla.

Version? World size? I play C3C 1.15, typically standard world, continents.

Usually each continent will contain 4 civs, 2 Iron and 2 Horses. Occassionally I can get both. Trade is almost impossible since no Civ will have more than 1 resource so they won't trade it. Continents means only suicide Galleys can get to the other side of the world so no resource trading until Galleons.

	05-05-2004 07:57									#25
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Whatta threadjack... sheesh.

And, by the way, threadjacking in a different direction:

quote: Originally posted by forwax Think of it, they had the grandest empire of all humankind, the best archer and warrior, and the fastest warrior unit...

Francis, are you kidding or what?

	05-05-2004 08:02									#26
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The Mongols did rule over the largest empire in human history (and not for just a couple of years, either). If the history books are correct, they did so mainly through conquest and military rule, so I imagine their warriors were pretty darn kick-a$$.

I agree that Civ3 does not do the Mongols or their Keshiks justice. Then again, the Tribes are supposed to be more or less balanced...

	05-05-2004 10:53									#27
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The main reason the Mongolian army was so successful was because of their use of mounted archers, which were absent from any other army of the time. And those units were basically their entire army.

Not to mention the fact that Turkish tribesmen from the central Asian steppes actually outnumbered the ethnic Mongolian troops (which were also really no more than a patchwork of tribes). It was the charisma of Temujin that was able to unite them under a single "Mongolian" banner and sweep across all of Asia to found the largest empire the world has yet seen.

[/history major]

	05-05-2004 14:33									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Whatta threadjack... sheesh. And, by the way, threadjacking in a different direction: Francis, are you kidding or what?

I think yes, by a fact (at least in history book), that they had the largest earthly connected empire of all time.

This tread was only intented to know what all of you thought about this peticular UU. I just tought that they didn't really respected history. If you take the german panzer UU for exemple, those are OK to my sense, even the roman UU are pretty much what I think about.

What you'd you do to make the keshik more attractive ?

	05-05-2004 18:12									#29
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As I said, the movement on mountains is a little silly without it also applying to hills.

Other than that, for game balance, I think it is fine.

	05-05-2004 19:49									#30
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This thread was offically jacked, so quit trying to take it back with all this Mongol stuff.

Gallic Swordsman are the bee's knees. They look cool, and they have the extra movement. Of course in C3C, be ready to pay 90g for the warrior to GS upgrade.

Source of frustration, you take along spearmen for defense (fodder), but the GS has has the same defense. So if you stack veteran spearman with elite GS, the GS takes the hit. Oh will, just something to remember is your SoD.