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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
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Here is a basic summary of the chat we had with PAL:
Poly team: Con, GK and Kloreep
PAL: FP, Mo_D, Heroic_GC, and Lord_phan who ticked off FP so was kicked out early in the chat.
Long chat – 3 hours.
They are genuine in that they want to be friends. They see us as their biggest threat, and they want to eliminate that in this game. They know that if we tangle with each other, it will be very, very, bloody, and that there may not be a winner.
We disclosed our deal regarding republic (basically all the details) and discussed many variations of tech deals we can make with them. It worked out that the deal proposed and is on the table for discussion is: we share and share alike. Each team will coordinate and trade techs through the game (including incorporating the republic deal with CGD that we have) so that the techs costs of research are roughly equal and are shared.
We (I mean I) virtually told them we have ivory (came as close as one could without actually saying it, so they know) and they confirmed that they do not, nor did they see us gaining zeus as a major obstacle. Actually, they seamed to think it was a good thing that if we were allied, one of us having it was a good thing.
One point they are adamant about is killing off CDG. We actually had to work a long time at it to let them agree to us keeping our republic deal (they want us to archer rush them ASAP I think, breaking our trade agreement), but we ended up going with a “we enter a cold war, with no treaties made with them without each team agreeing”. They really want them dead prior to them gaining map making and gaining access to the other teams, but may (with convincing) delay til we get zeus on line and enter the next age. We discussed the fact that we will have to discuss wonders with them. They hinted that they were planning on one already (but didn’t say which one).
They are in the process of collecting barbs and converting them into workers with their UU (very good strat btw), and are requesting we do not go further north than an isthmus that is near meeting mountain. They will continue south to meet up with CDG, but will not go west towards our position.
Time is of the essence with these people. Make no mistake about that. They play fast and hard, and do NOT pause to worry about all the little things. The little things include such items as tech points not being 100% equal. We must make decisions with these people fast. I know it is our standard policy to delay and hold things up, making decisions only when we have to. That will not be possible with these folks. They will not accept that.
Thus the time frame on making a decision with them regarding alliance. We either sign up now, or become what those of us in the chat perceived as being enemies. Not neutrals, enemies. You see, in my opinion, they will act that if we are not friends, we are enemies.
They research Iron working in 5 turns. They know that we are researching it and are 9 turns away. If we ally with them, we change techs. We have until they are ready to gift us IW to make the decision. It is all tied together, so if we do not ally with them they do not give us IW. If we change, and do not ally, we loose research. If we ally, and if we do not change soon, we just hurt ourselves. [b]WE MUST MAKE A DECISION WITHIN THE NEXT 5 GAME TURNS[/]. And to get that much time took what almost amounted to begging on our part. They are fast movers, not used to the pace of pbem.
As everybody knows, I was the one who helped bring about the deal with CDG, helped start the peace thread in our forum (although I wouldn’t have minded a good sneak attack if it had a chance of success), and was for sticking with CDG and killing off PAL as soon as possible. The discussions in this chat, along with the previous formal and informal diplomacy, have changed my mind. I am now of the opinion that making an ally of PAL is to our best benefit in this game.
--GK, MOI
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:35
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Just a few thoughts that are haunting me:
Maybe I'm in a unique situation being away from this all, but I feel rushed into this whole thing, and rushing into things rarely allows one to make the best choice. It always make me feel as though someone is trying to make me choose what they want, not as though I'm being allowed to choose what I want.
It may ultimately be true that this is the safest course of action for us, and it may also be true that this is the best long-term course of action for us. But despite those two things, there's something too easy to this all that bothers me. Too permanent. Too soon...
Are we being suckered in by F-P's charisma and by this "too good to be true" offer? Or is this exactly the sort of situation that we should jump on and run with?
Is this sort of alliance that we should engage in? This alliance has game-breaking possibilities and will definately change the politics of this game.
Do those who are outside of the sway of F-P believe that PAL is the best team to ally with and if so why? Are we valuing them based on their war skills or on our trust in their word? Are we in favor of siding with them because of the Poly players that are on their team?
And most importantly, are we willing to cede control to PAL? They are becoming the principle in this alliance. At best, we can hope to share power, but thus far we have found ourselves in a weak bargaining position and we may find ourselves having to ask them for "permission" to do things.
With our trade regulated and our acts and movements regulated ... we are going to find ourselves in an unfamiliar place, a place where we do not control diplomacy, but merely act in a fashion that does not "rock the boat." Apolyton has always lead and controled alliances in the past. We are going to have to work hard to not be the junior partner in this one. 
--Togas (from Tokyo)
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Togas
Just a few thoughts that are haunting me:
Maybe I'm in a unique situation being away from this all, but I feel rushed into this whole thing, and rushing into things rarely allows one to make the best choice. It always make me feel as though someone is trying to make me choose what they want, not as though I'm being allowed to choose what I want.
It may ultimately be true that this is the safest course of action for us, and it may also be true that this is the best long-term course of action for us. But despite those two things, there's something too easy to this all that bothers me. Too permanent. Too soon...
Are we being suckered in by F-P's charisma and by this "too good to be true" offer? Or is this exactly the sort of situation that we should jump on and run with?
Is this sort of alliance that we should engage in? This alliance has game-breaking possibilities and will definately change the politics of this game.
Do those who are outside of the sway of F-P believe that PAL is the best team to ally with and if so why? Are we valuing them based on their war skills or on our trust in their word? Are we in favor of siding with them because of the Poly players that are on their team?
And most importantly, are we willing to cede control to PAL? They are becoming the principle in this alliance. At best, we can hope to share power, but thus far we have found ourselves in a weak bargaining position and we may find ourselves having to ask them for "permission" to do things.
With our trade regulated and our acts and movements regulated ... we are going to find ourselves in an unfamiliar place, a place where we do not control diplomacy, but merely act in a fashion that does not "rock the boat." Apolyton has always lead and controled alliances in the past. We are going to have to work hard to not be the junior partner in this one.
--Togas (from Tokyo) |
Good points
If we dont think we can handle this then we should try and work something out with CDG and hope for the best.
If controling diplomacy and the direction we are going to take two teams in is the important issue then we need to side with CDG.
PAL is already in the lead, it sounds like they are farming barbs like crazy (read: lots of slave workers), it sounds like they are on or very near a floodplain and they are agricultural.
I dont think we are going to be able to catch up. Junoir partner maybe all we can muster at this point.
If we can't stomach that, then side with CDG, or see if we can remain nuetral and ride this out.
This alliance is basically an all or nothing deal. If we cant handle that then your right we need to look elsewhere.
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
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I dont think we have to control them. I dont think we could. Yes, that is different from what we have done in the past, but is it too much to think of having a partner instead of a servent? They are asking to be partners. CDG is asking (or will be) to be our lackies. Either way, we are strong. I think we are stronger with a partner. Just my 2 pennies.
And yes, in a way it is a rush,but that is how they are. We will also have an influence with them. If we were to do things 100% there way, we would be gearing up for war now with CDG and saying screw our previous tech deal.
THAT is why I feel that although we can trust PAL, we better not trust them TOO far. As long as it is in their best interests to keep us around, they will do so.
Also, I see pal as a mid to long term threat - they are the ultimate builder/REX civ. We are the ultimate in controling a large empire civ. In those regards, we compliment eachother very well.
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wervdon
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I think we lay out our terms to PAL as follows:
1) We finish the republic deal with CDG, no room for movement. Its in both our best interests as it guarantees a tech lead over the other continent. Which we want if we are truelly going to be partners game long :P
2) We (apolyton) builds Zeus as soon as we get mathematics. Our contribution to the war with CDG with be ancient calvary (as many as have been produced by the end of our NAP when republic is gifted) guarded with hoplites.
3) We will not break a NAP to attack them early. This is our reputation into the next game at stake. PAL needs to understand that. We do of course agree not to sign a NAP with CDG that extends more than a set # of turns past republic.
4) It is important CDG not realize (or at least not be sure about) what is coming. If they know they could break the tech deal. The last thing we want is them dragging their feet. If we believe they are dragging their feet purposely (or they outright break the deal), then we agree that that is cause enough to put the plan into action sooner rather than later.
5) We agree that *if* a team on the other continent is eliminated prior to the completion of the tech deal, that PAL can move in ASAP, and that we will join them immediately upon the expiration of any agreed to NAP's as the republic deal becomes totally moot.
Thats my terms at least. Since this is elimination, game long doesn't mean that much (it could be a very short game). I can handle being "junior" partners in this game so long as our interests are protected up front.
Also Zeus + hoplites should help guarantee our security should PAL be out to backstab us in this game. I know I'd certainely think twice before backstabbing us in the ancient era under those conditions. Especially if the other choice was just go eliminate the hated germans instead.
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wervdon
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I just read the entire chat log (my goodness it was a monster).
I think PAL has more or less already agreed to everything I wanted. We get to honorably end our deals with CDG, we get republic, we get zeus. I say we vote and hopefully do this.
Only thing we need to be careful of: They will want to hit CDG and hit them hard immediately upon finishing republic, we must not enter into a NAP that goes beyond getting republic. I think we can probally swing 2/3 turns beyond with PAL (it'll take us that long to move in anyways), but I'm not sure. At the same time CDG will be chomping at the bit for either an alliance or a NAP that goes much further than republic.
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wervdon
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We are being rushed, but look at it from their perspective:
They've laid it all out for us. They've shown a noteworthy amount of trust in us already. They are even willing to work within the restrictions of our pre-existing tech deals with the enemy they want to kill.....
How long would you want to wait? They are giving us 5 turns (basically a week give or take). If the answer then is still "we just aren't sure, go ahead and give us the techs though", wouldn't you be a bit well.....cautious?
I don't think they are being unreasonable at all with wanting a quick response before they start basing decisions off of the assumption that we are with them when we won't even commit to it.
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:35
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What is there to think about? This issue has been here for several days now. This is elimination, so at least one of the three on this continent must go sooner or later. Poly is obviously out of the question. PAL may well be very tough, if what everyone says about them is true (I admit I am taking everyone for their word on this, I have no first-hand knowledge of how good any of these players are). CDG is already floundering (again, if others are to be believed). In an alliance, Poly will survive any team we attack. CDG has shown itself to be historically a less organised team, and thus the easier target.
For there to be further thought there must be alternatives. We have covered several times the alternatives to allying with PAL against CDG: staying independent (risky at best), allying with CDG (will prove to be a difficult and prehaps trying proposition), a three-way alliance (don't ask me to help with negotiations in THAT).
I understand stopping and thinking first, that is good. But we HAVE done so, and IMO we are not only not rushing into this, we have no concrete viable alternatives worth the risk. PAL (or F-P at least) is spending a considerable amount of time and effort on this (especially if his team has not heard of IRC, then they are hardly likely to normally spend much time chatting) and has shown us some goodwill. We can't turn that down without an extremely good reason, and I have yet to see such a reason.
It is good to cover alternatives, but sometimes you just have to accept that we've covered them and to get things moving. Second-guessing at this early stage is not going to help. The right questions were asked by Arn and Togas (and others), but with the best option we have being firming things up with PAL, the questions are answered.
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01-05-2004 16:17
My thinking too. The only danger is that, being more powerful, they decide to try to take us out. But that could happen without an alliance, and would if anything be less likely with one.
We would make it very tough for them; I fear we would lose in the end especially if another Civ came over to join in the fray.
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