02-05-2004 15:36									#1
	AU mod: The space race Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The problem

When going for a space victory, the human player basically needs to do two things: a) be the first to research most of the techs needed as a prereq for spaceship parts (so that the AI won't start them first) and b) have some cities with decent production (40-80 shields) to churn out SS parts (so that the AI won't finish them first). To be precise, you need to research 12 modern techs out of 17 for a space vicory (this was only 10 in PTW, but C3C introduced the Minitaturization/Robotics line as an SS prereq) and to invest 3200 shields (4*160 + 4*320 + 2*640) to actually build the 10 SS parts (same as in PTW).

Normally, going for a specific kind of victory involves some opportunity costs, e.g. if I'm aiming for early domination, my culture often will be inferior. The main opportunity costs of a space victory are obviously the shields that I can't invest in, say, a bunch of Modern Armor to cripple one of the surviving AI's, e.g. the one that is most likely to compete in a space victory.

The problem, as I see it, is that the actual no. of SS part shields isn't much of a sacrifice. I assert that a human player that has made it to the modern age has at least 15 cities (assuming a pure 'builder' style of play) and an empire-wide production of about 400 shields per turn (after waste). (This assumes one city with about 80 shields per turn, 2 cities with about 40 shields pt and 12 cities with about 20 shields pt.) In other words, the empire production of about eight turns equals the shields needed for a space vicory. As the typical research time for the needed modern techs is at least 30-40 turns (even if you get some techs by trading with your main AI rival), the human player basically has the freedom to build SS parts and a bunch of Modern Armor at the same time. That's not much of an interesting choice.

Possible solution

Increase the shield costs of SS parts by about 50% (from 160/320/640 to 250/500/1000). This forces the 'builder' player to sacrifice about a third of his/her shield production when going for a space victory, and makes waging offensive war in parallel more difficult. Also, now there's the viable option to save cash, go for Robotics ASAP and rush some Manufacturing Plants to speed up building SS parts. As for the AI - it should still go for a space victory with +50% shield costs (at least it did in PTW, as tested by myself).

(A drawback of this suggestion is that OCC and 5CC space victories will be much harder, but while I admire the skills needed to win under these self-imposed restrictions, I don't think that OCC and the like should affect the adoption of a specific rule change.)

Note: The suggested change was part of former versions of the AU mod (vanilla Civ3 and PTW).

What do you think?

Last edited by lockstep on 02-05-2004 at 16:32

	02-05-2004 17:06									#2
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Interesting idea. If anything, your example of the likely number of shield rich cities is conservative, particularly if the human has built Hoovers, and even if not it's likely to have say 10 to 20 cities with power plants. In most cases because of the staggered availability of the SS parts, you will probably have a maximum of 3 cities at any one time building SS parts, which won't really dent your military production significantly if you need it.
As you've said, this effectively means that a SS victory is all but assured as long as you're not trailing in techs.

Will increasing the cost by 50% therefore make much difference? Perhaps we should double it, or even more....bringing Nuclear and Manufacturing Plants more into the game.

	02-05-2004 17:24									#3
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+50% is conservative indeed, but it's a level a) I'm fairly sure the AI can cope with b) hopefully no one will accuse of being 'too far away from stock'.

	03-05-2004 07:00									#4
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I'm all for extending the length of the game for this type of victory. If you want an easy way out, and you're a builder, you can always try to get the UN. As it is now, the toys of the modern age are rarely used, because launches come too soon.

However, from my PTW games under the AU mod rules, the proposed change does not result in a delayed launch for the human player. As lockstep says, the SS launch date for human players is usually limited by the tech pace. We use the Palace, other Wonders, and the least expensive SS parts as prebuilds, so we will still be limited by the tech pace, not by shield cost, even at a 50% higher cost.

The AI, on the other hand, does not use prebuilds, so it will not start building these expensive components before it already has the required technology. The AI SS launch is basically limited by the shield cost of the SS component belonging to the last technology it gets. So this change will usually affect the AI launch date, but not the human launch date.

	03-05-2004 10:58									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Another thought - instead of increasing the cost of each component, how about increasing the number of each component required from 1 to 2....or at least some of them? This would stretch it out a little and dampen the effect of human mega-production cities.

	04-05-2004 01:13									#6
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quote: Originally posted by alexman ... the SS launch date for human players is usually limited by the tech pace ... The AI SS launch is basically limited by the shield cost of the SS component belonging to the last technology it gets. So this change will usually affect the AI launch date, but not the human launch date.

The proposed change slightly delays the AI launch date, but markedly reduces the human player's ability to wage war and go for a space victory in parallel. IMO, this makes for better gameplay.

	04-05-2004 01:55									#7
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Not necessarily, lockstep. Don't forget MGLs. In the modern age, it's pretty easy to generate tons of MGLs with Modern Armor if you have a weak AI civ to beat up on with a "lazy war."

-Arrian

	04-05-2004 13:09									#8
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Even doubling the cost of spaceship parts would have only a limited impact on players' ability to fight and work on the spaceship at the same time. Granted, a player's ability to build new MAs and MechInfs would be reduced somewhat, but what about the numerous MAs and MechInfs he already has (largely from tank and infantry upgrades)?

Further, what real strategic benefit is there to interfering with players' ability to fight and work on the spaceship at the same time? My initial impression is that games where it would make a difference in the outcome would be very rare. In contrast, interfering with players' ability to fight wars that they want to fight but don't really need to fight could fairly easily undermine their fun without actually influencing the game's outcome.

If it weren't for the prebuild aspect, I would like the idea of making it harder to build all of the spaceship parts in parallel in the last few turns of the game. (With proper use of prebuilds under the standard rules, I can generally research Rocketry as my third tech from last and still finish the Apollo Program and the needed parts by the time I get the last two techs. That seems like a less than ideal situation.) But with the way a cost increase would give humans an even bigger advantage from our ability to use prebuilds, I'm inclined to think that making parts more expensive would do more harm than good.

The AIs' algorithm for choosing when and where to build spaceship parts could also come into play. Imagine the impact of increasing the cost of spaceship parts if an AI picks a realtively low-production city to build a high-cost part in. And would there be a risk that increasing part costs would cause AIs to build other things instead of parts in the late game?

Nathan

	04-05-2004 21:07									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Another thought - instead of increasing the cost of each component, how about increasing the number of each component required from 1 to 2....or at least some of them? This would stretch it out a little and dampen the effect of human mega-production cities.

I read somewhere that there is a bug with multiple SS components required. Has anyone tested it?

	04-05-2004 22:24									#10
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I have a hard time seeing any realistic possibility that increasing the number of components would interfere with humans more than it would interfere with AIs in any case.

	05-05-2004 06:34									#11
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While I've suggested one alternative, we're probably fighting a losing battle on this one. Realistically, once you've reached the Modern Age with at least tech parity, there is little the AI can do to prevent a human player reach a SS victory. The only potential risk factor is a prolonged war in Democracy that results in a revolution.

By the time you've got there, you just want to finish the game off and probably are putting most of your cities on wealth to boost your research pace after making sure you've got a strong enough defensive force to withstand any invasions. Stretching it out probably just serves to prolong the agony and increase the annoyance factor, which is hardly a good thing.

So while there are things we can do to make it a little harder, as Nathan says it doesn't really change strategic choice nor provide a new avenue of opportunity for the AI to catch up. More expensive parts? Oh well, build a couple of Nuclear and/or Manufacturing Plants just to make sure. More parts? Add a few more turns, no additional enjoyment.

Most times I'll opt for the SS victory even though domination would be more satisfying to the ego, simply because I've had enough and want to move on. The goal I'm continuing to strive for is the ability to achieve domination before the SS victory is within reach.

If you really want to make it harder, then decrease the occurrence of Uranium and Aluminium. But that will also just annoy people, since we will have to conquer more islands.

	05-05-2004 21:22									#12
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay ... what real strategic benefit is there to interfering with players' ability to fight and work on the spaceship at the same time?

Providing an at least somewhat interesting choice?

At the moment, as long as I'm ahead tech-wise, I can build SS parts and besides that do pretty much anything I want.

quote: If it weren't for the prebuild aspect, I would like the idea of making it harder to build all of the spaceship parts in parallel in the last few turns of the game. (With proper use of prebuilds under the standard rules, I can generally research Rocketry as my third tech from last and still finish the Apollo Program and the needed parts by the time I get the last two techs. That seems like a less than ideal situation.)

Same here, and the reason why I started this thread.

quote: The AIs' algorithm for choosing when and where to build spaceship parts could also come into play ... would there be a risk that increasing part costs would cause AIs to build other things instead of parts in the late game?

I have only very limited evidence, but here goes: I did a test game way back under vanilla Civ3 or PTW with player1's mod (which was very close to stock rules), modified to +50% shields for spaceship parts. I confined myself to very limited warmongering so that two or three competitive AI's would make it to the modern age. Result: I won via space race, but the closest AI had built 9 of the 10 SS parts and had been working on the last part for four or five turns when I launched.

	07-05-2004 01:15									#13
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OK, 50% increase in SS component cost is now under consideration. Voting in a week.

	11-05-2004 19:52									#14
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Time to vote. 48 hours.

Yes/No: Increase cost of all spaceship components by 50%

	11-05-2004 20:20									#15
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No.

	11-05-2004 20:51									#16
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No.

	12-05-2004 03:40									#17
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YES

	12-05-2004 18:00									#18
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No.

Seems like a change without clear benefits in terms of the mod's philosophy.

	12-05-2004 18:58									#19
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No.

	13-05-2004 02:35									#20
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No.

	14-05-2004 18:10									#21
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No.