02-05-2004 22:39									#1
	Newly Revised $MiniGame (Feudal) DemoGame Rules Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Consolidated $MiniGame DemoGame proposal.

CURRENTLY:
SECTION ONE
Each city is operating under a Guild Pricing system.

A.
This means each city has a total market of ((Pop X Per Capita Income) + City Commerce APPLIED TO TREASURY))

B.
This money will be allocated to each of the 3 goods (Food/Shields/Commerce) each round by vote of the the landowners of each city.

C.
Each player then buys/sells good in a trade thread which will be open for 72 hours. At the end of the 72 hours the session is over and all transactions recorded.

D.
Each player is considered to have a Manor that can store up to 10 goods of any combination.

E.
On discovery of The Wheel a player may buy/sell goods in any citystate whose radius borders the citystate his tile is in and is connected to that citystate by a road.

F.
On discovery of Horseback Riding a player may buy/sell goods in any citystate whose radius borders the citystate his tile is in regardless of road connections.

G.
On discovery of Bronzeworking Alcohol Markets will be added. See APPENDIX A for further clarifcation.

SECTION TWO
SPECIAL RESOURCES

A.
Gems - Commerce from a tile that has Gems is considered to be "Gems" which are sold as standard commerce but get a 25% bonus to their final sale price.

B.
Coconuts - Food from a tile that has an Oasis is considered to be Coconuts and gets a 25% bonus to its final sale price.

C.
Sugar - Food from a tile that has Sugar is considered to be Sugar and gets a 15% bonus to its final sale price.

Molasses - Commerce from a tile that has Sugar is considered to be Molasses and gets a 10% bonus to its final sale price.

D.
Grapes - (Food from a tile with the Wine resource.) Sells for a 10% bonus of the final sale price.

Wine - (Commerce from a tile with the Wine resource.) Sells for a 15% bonus of the final sale price on the ALCOHOL market.

D.
Iron - (Shields from a tile with the Iron resource) Sells for a 25% bonus of the final sale price.

D.
Horses - (Commerce from a tile with the Horse resource) Sells for a 25% bonus of the final sale price.

Typically any tile with a resource gets a 25% bonus divided amongst the prodution types that receive a bonus from the resource.


SECTION THREE
Auctions and land tiles.

A.
Each Player is entitled to choose his first tile for free.

B.1
Players are allowed to bid on unclaimed tiles during land auctions held by the government. They must meet the minimum bid price as set by the government for those tiles.
B.2
They must make a downpayment of the tile's minimum bid price if they win the auction for the tile.

C.
A player may go into debt in bidding for one item only. Once in debt the player cannot participate in in auctions or bidding until they are out of debt.

D.
Players are allowed to bid on units that are put up for auction by Cities. Settlers are entitled to ownership of the eight tiles they initially bring into the empire from their founding of a city.

E.
Water tiles are not ownable but their production may be leased out by the citystate they are in the radius of upon discovery of The Alphabet (first tech to allow a naval unit).


SECTION FOUR
LABOR AND BUILDINGS
A.
Labor is used to operated businesses and to construct buildings. Each city has 1 Labor for each Pop and each Player has free Labor (called a Vassal) they may use on their estate or in any city their estate (tile(s)) are in the radius of.

B.
Labor can convert 1 Shield per turn into a building, if enough Labor/Shields are available a building may be built in one session or it may be built over several session. See APPENDIX B for more rules clarifications.


***************************
APPENDIXES

APPENDIX A
ALCOHOL MARKETS

There are many different types of Alcohol. Each city's alcohol market is a separate market from the other basic markets.

Alcohol Markets operate on a supply and demand system.

The Demand in any city is determined by the following formula:

For Towns there is 1 Acohol demanded for each Pop.
For Cities 2 Alcohol are demanded for each Pop.
For Metropolis' there are 3 Acohol demanded for each Pop.

(So a city with 2 pop would demand 2 Alcohol and city with 7 pop would demand 14 Alcohol.)

Alcohol has a base price of $100.

The price is determined as follows.

Demand/Supply * Base Price

(So if a city that demanded 3 Alcohol had 2 Alcohol sold in it the Alcohol would have sold for (3/2*100) $150 each.) Basically, you could assume they suppliers watered down what they had available to make as much profit as possible, similiar to what happened during Prohibition.

Types of Alcohol.

Wine - (Commerce from a tile with the Wine resource.) Sells for a 15% bonus of the final sale price.

Beer - (Converted from Food) Sells with no bonus, must be sold upon completion (cannot be stored until discovery of Electricity).

Rum - (Converted from Molasses) Sells best in coastal cities.

Moonshine - (Converted from Food and Sugar)

Whiskey - (Converted from Moonshine)


APPENDIX B
LABOR AND BUILDINGS


******* LABOR *******

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city Labor from any city with the estate in its radius. For businesses in cities the Labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius. However, when building IN a city at least one Labor MUST be hired from the city for each building you are building there.

Under Despotism/Anarchy/Monarchy each player has one Vassal. The central government will auction off an additional Vassal for each foreign Worker captured.

To build a building a player must use Labor to convert Shields into the building. 1 Labor can convert 1 Shield each turn.


******* BULDINGS *******

RETAIL BUSINESSES
{city only} (Costs 3 shields/labor)
A Retail Business gives you a 50% bonus to the final sale price of specific product/goods in the city it is built/operated in.

Any "Retail Business" can be expanded into a "Chain Retail Business" for an additional cost of 2 shield/labor which removes the 6 product max (so if the city was size 14 a "retail business" only allows you to sell 6 product at a bonus, but a "chain retail business" would allow you to sell 14)

When built, you must choose the type of "retail business" it is:

1) "Shoppe" -bonus applies to commerce (same as current Shoppe)
2) "Eatery" -bonus applies to food (same as current Tavern)
3) "Tavern" -bonus applies to food AND alcohol, but must sell at least 1 of each to receive bonus
4) "Bar" -bonus applies to alcohol
5) "Steak House" bonus only applies to Beef (food from tiles with the Cattle resource) but bonus is 75%, not 50%
6) "Hardware Store" 50% bonus applies to shields and halfShields.
7) "Specialty Shoppe" bonus applies to a specific type of commerce (ie, Horses, Dye, Spice, etc) and only that commerce receives the bonus, but the bonus is 75%, not 50%.

Any Shoppe, Hardware Store, or Specialty Shoppe in a city with a Marketplace receives an additional 25% bonus, or 75/100% total bonus.

You can cease operations for 1 trading session and convert from one type of "retail business" to another type for a cost of 1 shield/labor.


INN {city only} (Costs 5 shields/labor) Requires CURRENCY Advance
Requires Eatery, Tavern, Bar, and/or Steakhouse in city chosen.
Doubles bonus on product sold in Eateries, Taverns, Bars and Steakhouses owned by player in city but IS NOT cumulative with the bonus from a Marketplace.
An Inn requires 1 local labor to operate.

Any Inn can be expanded into an Inn Chain in a specific city for an additional cost of 3 shield/labor which removes the 6 product max (so if the city was size 14 an "inn" only allows you to sell 6 product at a bonus, but an "inn chain" would allow you to sell 14)
An Inn Chain requires 1 local labor to operate.



STOREHOUSE {city or estate} (Costs 2 shields/labor) stores up to 20 commodities (including food). NOTE: you may store up to 10 nonfood items(shields/commerce) in addition to/instead of this 20 storage

BREWERY {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor) Requires BRONZEWORKING advance
Allows up to 4 labor to convert up 2 food into 2 Beer per labor (1 to 1 conversion).
1) Breweries may only sell their product in a city which contains the source Brewery in its radius or are connected to the Brewery by railroad.
2) Until the discovery of Electricity, Ale and Beer MUST be sold the turn after it is produced, it cannot be stored.

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the brewery in its radius. For breweries in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius.


RUM DISTILLERY{city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor) Requires BRONZEWORKING advance
Allows up to 4 labor to be used to convert 2 Molasses into 2 Rum per Labor used.
Rum sells with no bonus EXCEPT when it is sold in coastal cities where it sells at a 50% bonus.
The Molasses must be in the Distillery's possesion at the beginning of the trading session.

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the brewery in its radius. For breweries in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius.


STILL{city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor) Requires BRONZEWORKING advance
Allows owner to convert Sugar and Food into Moonshine (1 Sugar and 1 Food covert to 1 Moonshine). Each Labor used can convert up to 2 Sugar/Food. A Still can only utilize a maximum of 5 Labor.

The Sugar/Food must be in the Distillery's possesion at the beginning of the trading session.

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the brewery in its radius. For breweries in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius.


WHISKEY DISTILLERY{city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor) Requires BRONZEWORKING advance
Allows up to 4 labor to be used to convert 4 Moonshine into 4 Whiskey per Labor used.
Whiskey sells on the Alcohol Market with a 100% Bonus (or double its final sale price).
The Moonshine must be in the Distillery's possesion at the beginning of the trading session.

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the brewery in its radius. For breweries in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius.


SMITHY {city or estate} (Costs 3 shields/labor) Requires IRONWORKING advance
Allows up to 2 labor to convert 1 Iron into 3 Tools per labor (1 to 3 conversion).

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the Smithy in its radius. For Smithies in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool.

Tools - (Produced from Iron in a Smithy) Sells on the shield market. Tools allow Labor to build much faster and efficiently. 1 Tool allows 1 Labor to convert 2 Shields in one turn as if they were 3 Shields. The Tool is used up in the construction of the project.
So, 1 Labor could use 2 Shields and 1 Tool to build a Building with a build cost of 3 in one turn.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 26-07-2004 at 16:37

	02-05-2004 22:40									#2
	Remove this text

Here's what I was thinking of in order to keep it simple.

1) Based mostly on tile ownership.

Tiles generate production, production used/sold on market for cash, cash used to bid on new tiles/labor/units/etc.

This basic system would be like the old $MiniGame.

2) Cities/Government altered slightly based on current ingame government type.

Despotism - "Biggest club leaves biggest crack in skull."

Dread Chief - "President" elected monthly by majority vote of members. Plays game turns.
Clan Chiefs - "Mayors" elected monthly by majority vote of Warlords(tile owners). Each tile within a city's radius counts as one vote.


Monarchy - "God save the King/Queen"

Monarch - "President" elected monthly by majority vote of members. Plays game turns.
Regents - "Mayors" elected monthly by majority vote of Nobles(tile owners). Each tile within a city's radius counts as one vote.


Republic/Democracy - "We the people"

President - elected monthly by majority vote of members. Plays game turns.
Mayors - elected monthly by majority vote of local members(tile owners). Each tile within a city's radius counts as one vote.


Unit sale and ownership.
Units would be the property of the city that produced them and under the direction of the Mayor of that city. The Mayor of the Capital would be the elected President who could appoint a "Mayor" for the capital or perform those duties if he/she prefers.

The city can auction off the units it produces in which case the proceeds of the sale or divided amongst the city that produced the unit and the central government to be used for expenses/salaries as it sees fit.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 02-05-2004 at 22:55

	04-05-2004 04:55									#3
	Got spare money?

I gotta be honest. The whole intent of this evades me.

I assume it is played during the regular demo game. Players get cities?? Who determines who gets the first city - or the city on the river with 3 bonus food tiles??

How do you 'accumulate' shields/cash?

And I presume that gameplay in the feudal game in no way impact decsions being made in the demo game. It strikes me that the interests may run contrary.

Or have I missed the point of this all together?

	04-05-2004 05:22									#4
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The cities are elected positions like the old DemoGame, sorta like Governors. The players bid, own, and give commands for the tiles (like the $MiniGame) and units.

It DOES affect the main game. That's the point, if you own 3 Warriors you might be a tad more cautious about sending YOUR troops into battle as they could die.

	04-05-2004 10:57									#5
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What about irregular members, who can't / don't want to involve themselves with the feudal minigame? What can they vote on?

	04-05-2004 13:06									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

BTW, I think the idea has a great potential, but that it requires too much micromanagement for the casual player to really want to play it. I remember playing the $ minigame two years ago, and it just was tedious after a few turns where it was fun.

Since this is a democracy game, I am not too fond of this kind of elitism, where only those thrilled by the $ minigame get to make political decisions. However, I like the principle of feeling more or less attached to a city. It can bring great Roleplay opportunities, and generally bring more interest in the DemoGame than there currently is.

I suggest we simply separate land ownership from the $ minigame. Instead of buying land, players are to claim land, for free.

Here's my idea. Depending on the size of our empire in squares, and depending on the number of players (as expressed by a census), each player gets to have X tiles, rounded down. We only begin the claim race when the empire is big enough for at least one tile per player. Given current figures, that shouldn't be too long: only 25 people have voted in the poll about the next game.

When the claim race is open, people take territory on a first come first serve basis. This way, they get votes in the city from which the tile depends. It is possible to trade tiles for whatever you want (money from the $ minigame, another tile, political favors...), the limitation only restricts the amoount of claims you can make when new territory is up for grabs.

I actually believe my system would require a "feudalism minister" or something, whose role would be to start claim-races, to decide under which city's authority falls each disputed tile, and to generally keep tabs making sure the game works regularily.

Here is how I envision a "claim-race": it is a thread started by the Feudalims Minister every time our empire grows enough so that each of us can claim one tile. For example, if we consider we are 25 players, the first thread would be opened when our empire reaches 25 tiles. The second one would be opened when our empire reaches 50 tiles, etc. We are bound to have unclaimed tiles this way, which is not disruptive to the system IMHO.
During wars, or during fast expansion periods, it is up to the Feudalism Minister not to open a claim-race every second day. He can wait for the end of the war or of the REX before opening the claim race (and thus allowing each player to claim two or three tiles at once).

I think my system better fits the political construct that is the DemoGame, and think it is also easier to understand for the potential newbie, or the irregular member. Yet, it does provide a basis for the $ minigame, and successful tycoons will have political weight in the mpire.

	04-05-2004 16:21									#7
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Communists.



The system you proposed Spiffor isn't any more fair the system we used before. You would have each one claim one tile for free whereas the previous system assigned values to the tiles based on the tiles production and each player bid up a certain combined value of tiles. And paid back the purchase price to the government.

My concern with your system is that some players will get a 2 food, 1 shield, 2 commerce Grassland while others will get a 1 food Jungle. Under the other system the Jungle player would have had 3-4 Jungle tiles instead of just one which would a bit more even.

And how are we to fairly determine who get the best land? With the bidding the player willing to the bid the most got the tile.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 04-05-2004 at 16:28

	04-05-2004 18:13									#8
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Communists. The system you proposed Spiffor isn't any more fair the system we used before.

I was more concerned with accessibility for newbies and occasional players, not really about fairness. Back in the time where the $ minigame had no impact on the actual decisions of the game, there was no problem in letting the market play (animated by only the most involved players). But if we want a political system that is feudal, we should try to make it accessible to every player.

quote: My concern with your system is that some players will get a 2 food, 1 shield, 2 commerce Grassland while others will get a 1 food Jungle. Under the other system the Jungle player would have had 3-4 Jungle tiles instead of just one which would a bit more even.

Hence the interest of trading. And nothing prevents you from playing the $ minigame with other people interested, and trade a good grassland with them, for 3 jungles you know will be cleared anytime soon

quote: And how are we to fairly determine who get the best land?

Pretty much "first come first serve". But we could also give the players of the $ minigame a priority, since they will care about the wealth coming from their land, whereas the non mini-gamers will only care about their political weight.

	04-05-2004 19:48									#9
	Suffering from ads?

You do realize that you DON'T have to own tiles to be involved with the proposal. Everyone gets to vote for the President and we would have positions that paid salaries (and could receive bribes).

All the money paid in auction for units goes into the government, and all the market tracking positions, Land Office assayer positions would be salaried.

	04-05-2004 20:01									#10
	Tired of ads?

Looks like you are getting resistance already Farb.

	04-05-2004 20:27									#11
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Looks like you are getting resistance already Farb.

There are people that always resist new ideas, its not a game killer though.

Personally, I have no problem with the everyone claiming one tile thing, it would be a lot EASIER than computing tile values.

	04-05-2004 21:56									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well how many people minimum do you think you need to start this?

Maybe we need a minimal crew, get a forum and test this out and SHOW the others it can work

If we cant get a forum here we can get a forum at that "other place".

	04-05-2004 22:06									#13
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Well how many people minimum do you think you need to start this? Maybe we need a minimal crew, get a forum and test this out and SHOW the others it can work If we cant get a forum here we can get a forum at that "other place".

I think we have enough people to try it out already, I think other's would join in after they see it working.

	05-05-2004 00:35									#14
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Personally, I have no problem with the everyone claiming one tile thing, it would be a lot EASIER than computing tile values.

Yep, and that's precisely the point. I have no problem with the $ minigame on pricniple, but I do fear it repels newbbies and occasional players. Hence my suggestion of making it easier.

	05-05-2004 04:18									#15
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But if we compensate those who do specific calculations with salaries it not makes up for it and offers those who don't own tiles positions in the game.

	11-05-2004 19:13									#16
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Bumped and topped so we can all see what this Feudal stuff is like.

Looks like you've infected quite a number of us with your idea, GF. As long as it works without the NEED to use it I like it....

	22-05-2004 05:54									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

GF, any hope of updating this?

	24-05-2004 20:02									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yep, and that's precisely the point. I have no problem with the $ minigame on pricniple, but I do fear it repels newbbies and occasional players. Hence my suggestion of making it easier.

I'm a newbie to the Demo Game stuff and I will say the idea is very interesting, but a bit intimidating. Some method of formul-i-zing the process into flow chart or an automated tracking system would signficiantly help. I can imagine people be wondering who does what next...

Regarding the occassional player, seems like you join any time, but what if a player "drops out" what would become of his/her assets. How much time would elapse giving a person time to respond to the latest request for action?

A very intriquing idea...one that has got me interested in participating in a demo game.

	30-05-2004 01:49									#19
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I very mush likes the iea of a feudal demogame, however I don't have the time to take part in it fully?

Would there be any room for just someone trying to observe and eventually show up for some time and then go back into a lurking mode?

	30-05-2004 04:27									#20
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Gramphos I very mush likes the iea of a feudal demogame, however I don't have the time to take part in it fully? Would there be any room for just someone trying to observe and eventually show up for some time and then go back into a lurking mode?

Easily.

	19-06-2004 02:27									#21
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s

Lurking / Dropping Out
1) If a player wishes to drop out:
a. He must make a post clearly showing his intent.
b. Upon his confirmation of departure, his goods are seized by the State and used to pay its debts--if there are no debts, the goods are auctioned off. (Hey, the State might have debts sometime. Who the hell knows? This seems like a pretty damn flexible game )
2) If a player starts lurking:
a. He may hire and pay someone to manage his property for him.
b. Otherwise, his goods will sit locked, accumulating shields, gold, food, whathaveyou. His property may not be disturbed without his permission.

	01-07-2004 10:41									#22
	Put an end to popups!

So at what stage are you guys up to in this, I am extremely excited to join in on a more intense level in a DGame such as this?

	01-07-2004 15:59									#23
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Where trying to give out starting tiles. You can join in the "Member List" thread.

	14-07-2004 04:59									#24
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Nice to see you are planning on joining Bluice!

However, according to what I have read in mrmitchell's post there is no solution in the case that someone just disappears ... does that mean there tile will be unavailable to anyone who wishes it that is active?

Sorry, I am slightly confused...

	26-07-2004 04:16									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

Did you update this GF?

Seems so...

	02-08-2004 21:47									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yes he must have, I was just going to ask that this be done, but it looks like GF beat me to it

	04-08-2004 01:54									#27
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I dont understand, can someone clarify the rules for me?

Or is this exceedingly complicated? Thats what it looks like...........

	04-08-2004 01:56									#28
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 I dont understand, can someone clarify the rules for me? Or is this exceedingly complicated? Thats what it looks like...........

Which ones?

	04-08-2004 02:21									#29
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All of them?

Ill be honest, Ive had some time lately to try and catch up on this so I can take over control of my "tile" again.

But it seems overly complicated, and it seems like there have been various changes and additions since I last could follow the game about a month ago.

Im jusat wondering how appealing this will be for a casual lurker to become active??????

	04-08-2004 02:43									#30
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It's not really too complicated if you look at it a piece at a time.

It's just all those little pieces together that throws you.