02-05-2004 23:39									#1
	Top 10 rts games Increase the size of your Attachments

Here's gamespy's list:

http://archive.gamespy.com/top10/february04/rts/


50% of the games I have never played, but I was shocked to see:

Age of Empires higher than Rise of Nations... There's not really anything in AoE that even resembles anything 'fun', it might be RT, but it doesn't have anything to do with strategy...
Dune 2 was not even on the list, only as a hornorable mention, while they give some C&C game spot 2 (or was it 3)... I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense at all... even though C&C games have had lots of time to create something good, they still haven't managed to get a strategy game as Dune 2... hell, I have considered several times to install Dune 2, but haven't found a place to download it (legal version of course ), while there's no way I'm ever going to install any C&C game...

And when talking about strategy games and RT games, you have to mention The Settlers 2... it has more strategic death than any of the other games they mentioned... though as far as I know The Settlers series were never really known in the states

	02-05-2004 23:47									#2
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As if the RTS games aren't identical in all but graphics.

	02-05-2004 23:49									#3
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the only one I've played is Rise of Nations. And that was the demo game. And I only played once (but I did win ). my vote goes to rise of nations.

	03-05-2004 00:03									#4
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quote: As if the RTS games aren't identical in all but graphics.

A point I made the other day

Although there are some exceptions like WBC2 and M:TW that buck the "harvest crap" and "build a base" formula that hasn't really changed since Dune 2.

-Jam

	03-05-2004 00:11									#5
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Black and White would be considered a RTS wouldn't it?

I have played that one as well. I didn't really enjoy it that much, I thought I would.

	03-05-2004 00:27									#6
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Total anihilation. Worst game ever. but, I dont wanna just all bash and no compliment... Had few interesting concepts.

I own 6 copies of that game. I bought none of them. My friends just gave it to me in disgust and I dont know why i started collecting it.

OK, I like Both RA1 and RA2. but RA1 being on real high like that is whack. RA2 is broken in its own ways, but its not at least broken gay like RA1 was....

Meh, its gamespy. what do u expect. That uy who wrote the article demonstrate absolutely zero knowledge in RT gaming. Actually worse negative seven thousand!!11!

Other than that list looks okay... im not gonna rip my hairs in frustration at the n00bness of gamespy foos is basically wat im saying. I cant really think of 10 RTS worthy to be considered 10 best anyway, so i guess some moderately ok games woul dfall into 5-10 list for me to fill in blanks.

Last edited by Zero on 03-05-2004 at 00:35

	03-05-2004 00:47									#7
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For SP it's a reasonable list. I too would like to see Dune2 and Settlers2 there somewhere, with C&C slightly lower, and TA slightly lower. But overall it's reasonable.

And to the ignorant 'RTS are all the same' brigade I bet everyone that posts in this thread can find a game they like and a game they dislike on that list.

	03-05-2004 01:02									#8
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I enjoy several RTS games, C&C being one of them. That doesn't mean they aren't all the same.

	03-05-2004 01:17									#9
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quote: And to the ignorant 'RTS are all the same' brigade I bet everyone that posts in this thread can find a game they like and a game they dislike on that list.

You won't get away with that blanket comment I was referring to my comments on the products from two particular design studios.

-Jam

	03-05-2004 01:29									#10
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I made no 'blanket comment'. You quoted a post and agreed with it, saying you had made the same point as the post you quoted. The post you quoted referred to the list, not just the games from Westwood and Blizzard. You should be more careful.

Anyway, as I repeatedly said, if you qualify your comments to apply to SP, since by your own admission you are ignorant of MP, I'll let you make your silly blanket statements. Often RTS doesn't make a very compelling SP genre anyway.

	03-05-2004 01:47									#11
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I was going to say that any Top RTS list that has an alternative style game like Medieval: Total War
without also having Europa Universalis (as, obviously, the #1 spot ) is a joke....


But go Total Annihilation!

	03-05-2004 03:26									#12
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Infact, this inspired me to install T&A again.


Maybe I'll try out some unit modding this time around...

	03-05-2004 04:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Often RTS doesn't make a very compelling SP genre anyway.

Why they even BOTHER making SP for RTS/FPS/Fighter is beyond me. All it does is attract bunch of casual players and cause confusion and mayhem on how the game is supposed to be played anyway...

I had a friend who was seriously ****ed up like that to the extreme. He built soldier and tanks and spent alot of time lining it up and making them march stratigh and **** in RA1 while i was tank pumping... I was like WTF... gay.

	03-05-2004 05:33									#14
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quote: Why they even BOTHER making SP for RTS/FPS/Fighter is beyond me. All it does is attract bunch of casual players and cause confusion and mayhem on how the game is supposed to be played anyway...

The studios care more about how many units they sell rather than how many hours their product is in use for. If adding the SP component of a game increases production costs by 10% but increases revenue by 50% due to all these casual gamers, that is a good deal.

	03-05-2004 05:55									#15
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Pah, multiplayer ought to be outlawed.

IMHO:
1. Total Annihilation
2. Warlords Battlecry II
3. Kohan
4. Warlords Battlecry
5. Majesty

C&C is crap by definition. Westwood still cranks out games with interfaces inferior to WarCraft II. Age of Empires and StarCraft had me fighting the interface instead of the enemy. Also, if you are going to have a bad story, at least make it easy to ignore.

Age of Kings is plain boring. I played a few multiplayer bouts of WarCraft III with my friends down at some cybercafe and it didn't impress me much.

	03-05-2004 06:59									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns quote: Why they even BOTHER making SP for RTS/FPS/Fighter is beyond me. All it does is attract bunch of casual players and cause confusion and mayhem on how the game is supposed to be played anyway... The studios care more about how many units they sell rather than how many hours their product is in use for. If adding the SP component of a game increases production costs by 10% but increases revenue by 50% due to all these casual gamers, that is a good deal.

meh u speak the truth, but 50% is recockulous. Significant amount but nowhere near 50%....

	03-05-2004 10:53									#17
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Gamespy sux go to www.penny-arcade.com

	03-05-2004 11:42									#18
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BLIZZZZZARRRRD !!!

	03-05-2004 15:31									#19
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Close Combat is the only good RTS game out there that isn't Paradox.

	03-05-2004 15:50									#20
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quote: "harvest crap"

Was that a typo, Jamski?

Anyway, I agree. RTS sucks. It needs some serious freshening up... New ideas... like... make'em turn based...

	03-05-2004 19:04									#21
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I must confess to enjoying Age of Empires. Not real strategic I suppose, but nice atmosphere. And of course I played it SP Ruined me for AOE MP maybe, but so what??

My impression is that AOK is more strategic - formations, etc. In fact Ive heard it said that AOK was pretty advanced for RTS' of its time.


AOE had some brilliant user created campaigns. Some of which were more illuminating about particular historical events than Civ scenarios.


POTM liked the peaceful scenarios in the Egypt learning campaign. Made me think it would be interested to have a "city builder" that focuses on the initial emergence from hunter gathering. Is Settlers like that?

	03-05-2004 19:07									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Verto As if the RTS games aren't identical in all but graphics.

Might I mention Seven Kingdoms. I played the demo. Had an interesting model of "ethnic assimilation", and of trade IIRC (including the beloved camel ) I wasnt wild about the fantasy setting and didnt buy it. I might get it now.

Does anyone know if any later RTS's picked up any of its ideas???

	03-05-2004 19:09									#23
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Another good Real time game is Sid Meiers Gettysburg. Shows how RT can be used seriously to model a historical battle. Strategy intensive, good atmosphere, etc. Of course it still compressed time, not true real time.

	03-05-2004 19:22									#24
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Empire Earth shouldn't be on the list at all due to being total crap.

Shogun should be on the list instead of Medieval.

RoN is a worthy addition to the list. Though I would have put it lower than they did.

I never played the Close Combat series so I can not really comment on how good it is but my Sid bias compels me to say that Gettysburg should have gotten this spot.

Homeworld is a good addition to the list.

AoE II should have had this spot over the original because of it being more fun to play.

Warcraft III looks like a good addition to the list given how quickly its design was copied.

Red Alert should have been lower down on the list.

Starcraft should have been #1 on the list.

Total Annihilation was pure unadulterated crap.

	03-05-2004 19:31									#25
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1. Starcraft (DD )
2. Warcraft 2
3. Rise of Nations
4. Empire Earth
5. Warcraft 1
6. Command and Conquer
7. Red Alert

Beyond that, I'm not sure... RTS's are basically cookie cutters of the pioneering games. oh, and Warcraft 3 is terrible. That should be last on the list... absolutely last.

	03-05-2004 19:41									#26
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Your list is decent Sava. Though I wouldn't have put in Warcraft 1 unless it's there because it pwnd Dune 2 by being the more entertaining game folowing the same exact design. I also think you should pick either C&C or Red Alert for your list but not both. They simply aren't different enough.

	03-05-2004 19:50									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Your list is decent Sava. Though I wouldn't have put in Warcraft 1 unless it's there because it pwnd Dune 2 by being the more entertaining game folowing the same exact design. I also think you should pick either C&C or Red Alert for your list but not both. They simply aren't different enough.

I have Warcraft 1 on there for sentimental value.

I agree with you about C&C and Red Alert, but they are two different games. Maybe I could just put like "C&C series" instead. About Empire Earth: I like the intro movie better than the actual game.

	04-05-2004 05:03									#28
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark My impression is that AOK is more strategic - formations, etc. In fact Ive heard it said that AOK was pretty advanced for RTS' of its time.

aok was really great when it was first released. still is good imo.

quote: POTM liked the peaceful scenarios in the Egypt learning campaign. Made me think it would be interested to have a "city builder" that focuses on the initial emergence from hunter gathering. Is Settlers like that?

you should try pharaoh(you can find it on kazaa). review - http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/pharaoh_main.asp

quote: Might I mention Seven Kingdoms. I played the demo. Had an interesting model of "ethnic assimilation", and of trade IIRC (including the beloved camel ) I wasnt wild about the fantasy setting and didnt buy it. I might get it now. Does anyone know if any later RTS's picked up any of its ideas???

there is seven kingdoms 2, and the first had an expansion pack. you used to be able to download 7k2 for free. i did a quick search but couldn't find it.

i've never been a serious rts gamer but my list would include, warcraft 3(w/ expansion), aok(w/ expansion), and warcraft 2 for multiplayer. single player rts is good but doesn't keep me entertained very long.

	05-05-2004 08:21									#29
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How can you dare bash Total Annihilation! Chris Taylor's Cavedog Games was an innovator in the field of RTS with its downloadable units on the net and its free content and its online Universe at Cavedog where players competed in an online Universe for power with the Core versus the Arm units! Total Annihilation was most definately one of the best RTSes ever!

Hmm... their ratings for anyone who didn't have the time to load the pages:

Honorable Mention: Dune 2 (1991)
10th: Empire Earth (2001)
9th Medieval: Total War (2002)
8th Rise of Nations (2003)
7th Close Combat 2: A Bridge Too Far (1997)
6th Homeworld (1999)
5th Age of Empires (1997)
4th Warcraft III (2002)
3rd Red Alert (1997)
2nd Starcraft (1998)
1st Total Annihilation (1997)

---
My Personal list:

1- Age of Empires (1997)
Possibly the greatest RTS of all time; Age of Empires was addictive, it was historical, and it kept things going. It included an easily accessable cheat mode and could be edited. Its multiplayer mode was also most accessable and had a good and realtively stable server. The possibilities for playing against a moderately intelligent AI (except in endgames) was great. And for its time, it was perhaps the greatest game of them all.

2. Starcraft
Bold. Sci-Fi. One of the few well-done and well-balanced and interesting sci-fi games released in reccent ages. Starcraft had everything that a gamer could want- good balance, good AI, a good challenge, interesting scenarios, etc.

Although its scenario editor was subpar, its movie-acting was better than most and drew the player in... and its multiplayer was second to none.

3. Kohan: Immortal Sovereigns

A great and innovative hybrid of TBS-and RTS with its pausable gameplay and its concept of 'heroes' Kohan is truely one of the most innovative games to grace the face of computer gaming.

4. Command and Conquer: Red Alert (1997)

One of the first RTSes and one of the more addictive. C and C made good use of movies and had high production values that drew the player in. Its music was by far the most compelling of all RTSes. And although gameplay was trite, it had a reasonable AI and a good net community.

Sadly, however, the opportunity for modding was near nil.

Very campy and very fun.

5. Seven Kingdoms (1997)

An amazingly innovative games. Seven Kingdom's didn't really have much of a multiplayer experience. However, it introduced the 'area control' later utilized by Starcraft and Kohan... and also introduced a Heroes of Might and Magic like hybrid of RPG and RTS with its killing of monsters and 'quests'

6. Empire Earth

A major step forward in the realm of graphics and just sheer "selection" for warriors interested in playing in any of 14 epochs! Is there anything that Empire Earth didn't have?

7. Rise of Nations

Expanding on Empire Earth.

8. Shogun: Total War

The genesis of the Total War Series

9. Total Annihilation (1997)

Innovative. Full of many things. (see my notes at the top of this article.)

10. Close Combat 2 (1997)

Amazing game. I don't know why I was addicted, because I don't really play wargames, but I was... This game and Jagged Alliance have similar feels, strangely enough... despite their obvious disparities of a squad-based tactical game with mercs versus Close Combat's squad based tactical game with top-down control of entire battlefields... But frankly, I wouldn't even consider this an RTS except because Gamespy did so- since it really didn't seem to be too heavy on resource gathering and other cliche RTS requirements. But oh well, it's a good game and it rounds out my list

--
-Sadly, I dislike Warcraft III ad didn't think that II, or I were that innovative.


--
Overall, 1997 was a great year for games... as both the Gamespy list and mine declare, with four games apiece.

	05-05-2004 08:24									#30
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quote: Beyond that, I'm not sure... RTS's are basically cookie cutters of the pioneering games. oh, and Warcraft 3 is terrible. That should be last on the list... absolutely last.

It isn't thta bad. Isn't it the first RTS to have a friggin 3-d or whatever mode?
I loved AOE2, and I don't care what anybody says.