03-05-2004 00:19									#1
	Variable turn length? Increase the size of your Attachments

After playing through Clash, I have come to the conclusion that Clash needs variable turn length. Variable turn length would be to TBS games what game speed is to RTS games. It would not be hard to code, and it would be a useful feature. Why? In some cases, such as extended periods of peace, where there would be no need for split second reactions, where nation-building would be the main focus, and things were relatively boring, a long turn length, measured in years, would be best. But in other cases, that is, periods of war and violence, where there was a need to make quick, precise decisions and to slow things down in order to react properly to an AI, a shorter turn length, measured in months, weeks, or even days, would be best. Anyway, variable turn length would be a very useful feature that would add flexibility and realism to gameplay. So, I invite the reader to consider it and form an opinion. Perhaps it (variable turn length) could even make it into the game!

Note: The turn length would be varied in-game by the player, using a slider or a text box. In case of a slider, it would progress from left to right, with horizontal progression being exponential. In case of a text box, there would be a drag down menu (Unit of time, years, months, days) and a text box to enter in the number. For instance, on the drag down menu, you could enter weeks, and type in the number 2, resulting in turn lengths of two weeks each. The option to change turn lenght should be in easy access of the player. Perhaps it could be on the turn end dialog box? In my opinion, the best option would be a slider in permanent view of the player, somewhere on the main screen. And that's my two cents.

	06-05-2004 05:15									#2
	Remove this text

Hi Pres:

Thanks for the suggestion. We talked about this quite a ways back. At the time it was dismissed because it would be impractical in multi-player. (Player B has to take several hours per turn since Player A is in a serious multi-front war.) We settled for eventually having lots of turns, (maybe 10x as many as civ) and letting the AI under player guidance take control in a "streaming turn" mode. You would break out of the streaming mode at predetermined break conditions like: "after 10 turns" or "when attacked" etc.

What is implemented now is by necessity crude since the AI isn't fully functional yet. Also, the discussion I cite was Long ago, and some important team members may disagree with the take on it from before.

If there is substantial support for your idea, we could certainly try it at some point. We are going to have the turn length be variable so it can be changed by scenario designers. Therefore implementing your idea as a test would be fairly easy.

	06-05-2004 07:09									#3
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Thank you. Now I think that there should be two modes: an Empire Building mode, in which you controlled the economic running of your empire, and which would have a relatively long turn lenght, and a Military/War Fighting mode, in which you moved units and fought wars and such, and which would have a shorter turn lenghth. How about that?

	06-05-2004 08:19									#4
	Put an end to popups!

I definitely like this idea. I have always been very unhappy with the fit between the military events timing and the economic events timing.

As for multiplayer, lets worry about that when it happens.

Cheers

	08-05-2004 04:31									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think worrying about MP is not nessary and even in RTS in MP you cannot change speed.

	08-05-2004 13:57									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The only thing I'm really interested in is a 'next turn' and 'next 10 turns' thing. Having smaller timeframes for military action is impractical if a war is fought by the ai on the other side of the world between themselves while you just want to go forward.

	09-05-2004 05:40									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I still think that there should only be one type of turn, in which everything happens. The econ model can be made to allow for any arbitrary reduction in turn size. I expect that is true of all the models. As Laurent points out, reducing the turn length will result in a lot of excess AI thought etc. But if the player wants to do it that way, I've got no problem with it.

	12-05-2004 02:25									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I strongly support variable turn lenght, set by the player. I designed equations in the social+govt+riots models, where relevant, to include that possibility. But I wouldn't worry about this just yet. Other things have priority now IMO.

	28-05-2004 15:52									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think reducing the economy turns under the threshold of 1 year will strain the realistic feel, becaus it will be necessary to take seasons into account. As long as the turns are 1 year, agriculture is pretty easy, but when you need to calculate the amount of food produced each season, it becomes vastly complex and you will need to take many more factors into account. (crop type, culture, climate, etc..)
Why? military foraging what? how much?, do disasters trigger famine? military tactics? Which month do revolutions break out? Farmers switching between field labor (summer) and home industry (winter), etc.

	28-05-2004 18:09									#10
	Get a bigger avatar today!

When planning EIT I decided to use something like this. I designed all models to run at 1 month per turn, and by default the game would run 12 turns each time the player hit the "end turn" button. If he right clicked on that button, he could change this default using a slider or an edit box, or it could be set differently in the scenario. So the term "turn" is an abstract one. One player may use the default turn throughout the game having one year pass each time he does so, another may play 25 years per turn until war breaks out, then go to 1 month per turn, it's a preference thing really.

The solution to multiplayer was similar to the way Civ2 MGE worked when someone wanted to change the turn timer. Either everyone approved the turn length change or it was denied, and everyone was always on the same time scale.

The solution to seasons as pointed out by Simon was simple as well... ignore it. At least until Clash is nearly completed, then seasonal effects can be revisited.

Anyway I support this option. Unleash the "11,000 year long turn" beast!!!

Edit:

I forgot to mention. Don't run the turn as a single unit, run each turn in succession to cut down on the AI hogging resources. In effect it's an automated "end turn" button and you allow the player 12 turns of planning/action while the AI plans it's turn for each of the 12 segments, so I really don't see this as being a problem at all.

Last edited by alms66 on 28-05-2004 at 18:15

	28-05-2004 18:27									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

One other thing about designing for 1 month turn intervals is the possibility of an online persistant world. Imagine a game with an enormous Earth map (or randomly generated for that matter) and hundreds of civs being run on a monstrous server. Players log in and rule an empire for a few hours, at 1 week per turn (they can't change this in the persistant world). So, in the persistant world, their rule was just a tiny part of the civ's history. AI players take control of the civs when the human players log off. Civilizations rise and fall as great players around the world lead nations on waves of conquest only to return the next day and see their glorious empires in ruins because some newbie logged on and let the riots get out of control...

It brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it. sniff.... sniff

	18-07-2004 16:59									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I like variable turns - like in Millennium 2.2 and Deuteros.
in M2.2 you had the date written out, and you clicked on the hours, days, weeks or months.
Deuteros (the sequel) had a little wheel half day, half night, which you could click to start or stop, or set it to stop on bulletins.
Then there was Elite: Frontier, which had a rather unsatisfactory console like on a VCR.

I think M2.2 wins for simplicity and effectiveness


Internet multiplayer should be another option, so give players a choice of both. But please - no C&C realtime!