06-05-2004 20:39									#31
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5800BC Offered 100 gold to Etruscans accepted.
+1 farmer in pop 1 city Tula.

5780BC Got Religeon, started Dynasty.
Coracle in Xoloc, started spearman.
Exchange maps with Etruscans accepted, shows we are extremely close the the Incans who i will meet next turn. Etruscans are too far away for serious ancient war (i hope).

5760BC -1 farmer in pop2 Tula.
Tenochtitlan renamed Apolytitlan.
Eagle Bay founded, +1 farmer, started spearman.
Warrior disbanded in Tlacopan finishes spearman.
Contacted Incans, offer 100 gold and to withdraw, both accepted.
Incans offer exchange of maps, i accept Incans have 4 cities, pops 3, 3, 5, and 6. we have 5 cities, pops 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 lol.

5740BC Spearmen in Tula and Tlacopan, both started spearmen.
Warrior disbanded in Apolytitlan knocks 3 turns off nomad.
Offered peace treaty to Incans, they declined -- we will take their cities.

5680BC Nomad in Apolytitlan, started spearman. No more nomads is production, we build 6 cities and take the Incans? to max out 10 under Dynasty.

5660BC -1 farmer in pop 2 Eagle Bay.
Injured barb spearman killed north of Tula.

5640BC Spearman in Tlacopan and Xoloc, both started spearman.
Gathering spearman between us and Incans.
Can see Nubian road south of Xoloc with coracle explorer.

5620BC Spearman in Tula, started spearman.

5600BC Met Nubians, offered 100 gold and to withdraw, both accepted.
Spearman in Apolytitlan, started spearman.
Jaguar Bay founded, +1 farmer, started spearman.
Nubians offer to exchange maps, i accept. Shows Carthaginians and Hebrews far away from us.

5580BC Spearman in Eagle Bay, spearman started.
Under FoW shows Incans found 5th city.

5540BC Spearman in Tlacopan, spearman started.

5520BC Spearman in Xoloc and Apolytitlan, both started spearmen.

Attachment: sgvii.jpg
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	06-05-2004 20:43									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I wont do unit complete messages next time, only messages changing build queue perhaps and important completions obviously.

Any thoughts of the next tech after Dynasty? Either Slingers (Projectile Weapons) or Roads (The Wheel) would seem the obvious, maybe Slingers first because i think we're close enough to the Incans to keep up good logistics if we need to.

BTW anyone know how to IMG tag link to a picture in the uploaded files section? Cant seem to do it anymore.

15 turns this round.

Attachment: apolyt-azte-5500bc.zip
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	06-05-2004 20:47									#33
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Any thoughts of the next tech after Dynasty? Either Slingers (Projectile Weapons) or Roads (The Wheel) would seem the obvious, maybe Slingers first because i think we're close enough to the Incans to keep up good logistics if we need to.

I would say Slingers and then Roads...

quote: 15 turns this round.

To EPW...

	06-05-2004 20:51									#34
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quote: To EPW...

... thats right, i forgot in the note on the savegame

	07-05-2004 02:55									#35
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Unless theres any objections, I'll start buiilding up an army to attack the Incans and research slingers.

	07-05-2004 03:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by EPW Unless theres any objections, I'll start buiilding up an army to attack the Incans and research slingers.

No objections from me, I guess that in the Cradle you have to build your civilization on the ashes of another one... as in the SAP2.

	07-05-2004 05:39									#37
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5440BC- Finished building 3 spearmen- started 3 more(sent them towards Tula in preperation for the invasion)

I build a lot more spearmen and send them all Tula throughout my reign, so I won't mention there completion/

5360BC-Research of Dynasty completed and our government is in anarchy. Are scientists manage to begin research of projectile weapons though it is slow work in the chaos.

5320BC- The Grand Army of EPW is created outside of Tula consisting of 12 spearmen.

5300BC- Are country emerges from anarchy and enters into Dynasty. Sadly the new government had to lower the workday to ten hours a day to keep the peasants happy.

5280BC- The Grand Army of EPW heads towards the Incan city of Chimbote

5260BC-According to the military graph our armies have surpassed the Incans in Strength.

5240BC- The Grand Army of EPW enters Incan territory.

5220BC-Our explorer meets the Kushites, I much weaker nation than us in every way....

5200BC (turn 90) to Tamerlin

Attachment: apolyt-azte-5200bc.zip
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	07-05-2004 07:18									#38
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yeah its looking good so far, we're only 3 turns from Slingers so we could pull back those 12 Spearman and reform to send in two 6+6 Spearman + Slinger stacks? Or if we can get the Incan city with the 12 Spearman we can use that city as a base, its abit risky though. Also get Kushite maps.

BTW another house rule, how about not using retreat? The AI doesnt use it...

	07-05-2004 07:26									#39
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I think we should risk it and go for the city, its not one of there big cities and I wouldn't think it would be all that well defended. Of course it would be safer to get some slingers in there but whats the fun in that Its up to Tamerlin.

I agree with the no retreating rule.

	07-05-2004 12:28									#40
	Full PM-box? Change here!

No retreat!

I think we should try taking a city with our slingers, as soon as we discover the necessary advance I will launch a massive production of Slings.

	07-05-2004 12:42									#41
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I was just looking at the Slingers stats, obviously theyre pretty dire on the front line, but so dire in fact theyre completely useless without a defence, as apposed to Archers in the unmodded game who were as strong as Warriors on the front line. If it comes down to me attacking ill be taking in at least a 2:1 ratio of Spearman:Slinger.

	07-05-2004 14:10									#42
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Too late, I have finished playing my 15 turns and I can tell you that even the 2:1 ratio is not enough and that 3:1 is barely enough.

See you all later for the after action report and the saved game.

	07-05-2004 18:56									#43
	5200 BC to 4900 BC Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

These 15 turns have mainly been spent producing Slingers though our glorious army has experienced its first defeat... and a sound one at that.

5200 BC
One Entertainer in Xoloc
One Spearman started in Eagle Bay (to be changed to Slinger)

5180 BC
One barbarian slinger North of Tula is defeated by our secondary stack of Spearmen, but this is a Pyrrhus' victory as we lost no less than three Spearmen. Slingers are dangerous.
Spearmen (to be changed to Slingers) started in Tula and Apolitytlan.
Chimbote attacked by our brave army. Our twelve Spearmen are defeated by 2 Warriors, 1 Spearman and 2 Slingers entrenched in the city, only one Warrior lost in the ennemy ranks. Never attack without Slingers... never!

5160 BC
Rations increased to 4 Kg as war is making the people unhappy.
Salary reduced to 16, Entertainer removed in Xoloc.

5140 BC
Projectile Weapons discovered, Wheel started.
Salary reduced to 12, one Entertainer in Xoloc.
All Spearmen in the BQs replaced with Slingers.

5080 BC
First Slinger produced in Apolytitlan, new one started.

5060 BC
Slingers in Xoloc and Eagle Bay, new ones started.
Slingers are sent to the front.

5040 BC
Slingers in Tula and Jaguar Bay, new ones started.
Nubians at war with Carthaginians.
Salary increased to 16.

5020 BC
Secret of Wheel discovered by our philosophers, our new objective is the City State and we started researching Pottery.
Slinger in Tlacopan, new one started in Tlacopan

4980 BC
Romans met by our explorers, 100 Gold offered.
Hebrews met by our intrepid explorers, 100 Gold offered.
Our explorers are asked to leave the territory of the Hebrews, that which we accepted.

4960 BC
Our brave explorer in the South stumbled on ruins littered with gold (386 Gold are brought back to our capital).
Barbarian Slinger spotted North of Tlacopan, a Slinger heading to the front is temporarily sent to garrison Tlacopan.
Maps exchanged with the Romans and the Hebrews.

4940 BC
Spearmen added to Xoloc and Jaguar Bay's BQs in order to build a supply of garrison units and future replacements.

4920 BC
Pottery discovered, Ceremonial Burial researched.
New Slinger in Xoloc and Eagle Bay.
Spearman started in Xoloc and Eagle Bay (Garrison). A Slinger is added to Eagle Bay's BQ.
Barbarian Slinger north of Tlacopan attacked and defeated by one of our Slinger. Slinger garrisoned in Tlacopan freed and sent to the front.

4900 BC
New Slinger in Tlacopan and Tula.
Huang Shang come into power.

Now that we have produced some slingers perhaps is it time to set PW to 100% for one or two turns and build a road between Tlacopan and Tula in order to reduce the number of turns needed to send troops against the Incans.

Hope I have not made too many mistakes...

	07-05-2004 18:58									#44
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Here is the saved game:

Attachment: apolyt-azte-4900av jc.zip
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	07-05-2004 19:19									#45
	Inflate your Upload Space

You probably need to be aware of how militias work in Cradle 1.30b...

Spearman militia are actually rather powerful. The reason is to add an additional challenge for early expansionism, and to give the AI a little more of a cushion against Barbarians. However this is not a cheat, or even an AI advantage over the player, because the player also has the same militia unit when he builds his cities.

A full attack stack will still take a city with 1 militia, but if the city is fully garrisoned, the defender should win.

Spear
Attack:10
Defense:15
HP:10

Spear Militia
Attack:15
Defense:15
HP:40 (this means that they act as a whopping 4 units)
A fully garrisoned city then acts like it has 15 units...

Sidenote: Don't forget that Spears only have an attack of (10). Warriors have an attack of (20), so if you are expanding via military, Warriors are the units to use.

Over time, the militias will lose their HP advantage. So upgrading to Hoplite Militias yields this result...

Hoplite
Attack:10
Defense:15
HP:12

Upgrade to Hoplite Militia (1000 gold)
Attack:15
Defense:20
HP:30 (this translates into 2.5 units)

And upgrading to Legion Militias yields this result

Legion
Attack:30
Defense:25
HP:15

Upgrade to Legion Militia (525 gold)
Attack:30
Defense:25
HP:20 (this translates into 1.3 units)

By the time you upgrade to Man at Arms, the HP advantage is wiped out.

Over time, the militias start out strong, become a little weaker, and then become stronger again due to a greater defense number. A player then needs to decide if he wants to upgrade them and pay the high costs at the beginning of the game, or forgo upgrading them and ultimately end up with a weaker unit later on.

After all, a unit with a (15) defense becomes cannon fodder, even with all those HPs.

(To be honest, I'd like to give militias even more HPs)

	07-05-2004 19:49									#46
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Thats something i didnt even notice with the militias of all the games ive played I assumed they were as powerful as their moveable types. That probably means 2 or 3 stacks to take a fully guarded city (without bombard capabilities anyway) and whatever other units we have for a supply chain. Im still wary of using Warriors though, their attack strength doesnt quite justify their price and support over Spearman IMO or another reason, Spearman last longer to give our Slingers time to fire, but Warriors die fast and put the awful (8hp) Slingers on the front row sooner. If Warriors were flankers it might be different.

	07-05-2004 20:33									#47
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Thats something i didnt even notice with the militias of all the games ive played I assumed they were as powerful as their moveable types.

It's only a part of Cradle 1.30b (as far as I know, not part of any other Mod that uses militias) - it was a recent change I made based on gameplay issues.

I still think that adding a few Warriors would be the way you go (but only if you plan on attacking). For one thing, Spears and Warriors both have the same HPs.

You also have to remember that a Spearman adds fortify and terrain bonuses to its defense - conceivably that will bring it over (20) Throwing a (10) attack Spearman against that is an invitation to destruction. If you are dealing with cities that have decent-sized garrisons, you will lose a lot of units.

From personal gameplay, I tend to peacefully expand in the early going. I usually have enough problems with Barbs (playing on high Barb settings) as well as not trading maps in the early going (personal choice for gameplay's sake). And oftentimes, even with aggressive exploration, I may not even meet another civ for the first 100-150 turns. (I tend to play gigantic/all land/continent with only eight civs, as this gives me more large rival civs)

	08-05-2004 06:42									#48
	Remove this text

wait, i'm confused, do i get 10 or 15 turns?

	08-05-2004 06:56									#49
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15

	10-05-2004 03:52									#50
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HuangShang, have you played your 15 turns?

	11-05-2004 08:05									#51
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sorry, i didnt have a free weekend... guess i'll forfeit another turn, but i promise not to miss the next time

	11-05-2004 09:36									#52
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Back to Maq then?

	11-05-2004 14:47									#53
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Yeah looks like. Ill play sometime late tomorrow.

	14-05-2004 14:14									#54
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Apologies for lateness, was getting busy with Rise of Nations

4900BCRations 4kg, Work 12hrs, Wages 20gld.
Slave Labour next because its on the way to Forts and City State.

4880BC PW set to 80%.

4860BC Ugh, Apolytitlan riots and lots of other cities on the verge, Rations 5kg.

4780BC Inner Road network complete! PW 0%.

4740BC Got Slave Labour. Set Trade next.
PW 80%

4720BC Built road to Incas border. 0% PW.

4640BC Incan 5 stack roaming around west of Tula, ample defences inside. They may be moving towards our capital.

Damn didnt get enough time to attack!

Attachment: apolyt-azte-4600av jc.zip
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	15-05-2004 04:52									#55
	Increase Your PM Length

4580BC- Destroyed Incan's 5 stack outside Tula while losing only one spearman.
Attacked Chimbote with a 12 stack of spearman/slinger...the force was slaughtered but did inflict significant damage to the defenders of the city.
Attacked with the other 12 stack and captured Chimbote with a loss of 5 spearman. It is a great day for our civilization.
I turn up the pw to complete the road network from Tula to our new city.
Renaimed Chimbote to Maqland

4560BC- Pw set back to 0.

4520BC- Barbarian javelin cavarly attacks a spearman outside Tual and loses.
A Etruria 5 stack move next to Maqland and their regard to us is at an all-time low. The city is well defended though.

4440BC- Finish researching Trade and begin research on ceremonial burial.

Attachment: screenshot4.jpg
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	15-05-2004 04:54									#56
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I finally posted a picture correctly

Attachment: apolyt-azte-4400bc.zip
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	15-05-2004 06:28									#57
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well done EPW

Man, those militia take some knocking over but i guess if we can get two 12 stacks attacking on one turn we've pretty much got the city everytime, until they have bombarders...

Maqland nice one

edit: You only played 10 turns... wasnt it 15 again? then 10 every sequence after that? Just reload and play another 5 turns and replace the attachment with the new one, no one will notice

Last edited by Maquiladora on 15-05-2004 at 06:34

	15-05-2004 06:41									#58
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Oh, I thought it was 20 turns, 15 turns, then 10 turns...I'll play five more later tonight.

	15-05-2004 06:51									#59
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

A total of 36 dead units for one city, it hurts?

	15-05-2004 07:06									#60
	Got spare money?

Think I should go after Machu Picchu or build up more units?