11-05-2004 21:12									#31
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Kind of OT, but has anyone played the game 'Spartan'? It's very much a civ-based game but with much better graphics and technologies and units from the classical and hellenistic eras. It would be a fine basis for a civ2 scenario, with lots of great ideas for city placement, unit types and city upgrades. It includes a number of scenarios, including the Peloponnesian Wars. Worth a look if you have the chance to buy it... Maybe I'll try and make a conversion for civ2 one day.

	12-05-2004 05:26									#32
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@ Fairline: perhaps you can post an url? It sounds interesting

@ Gagliaudo: how do you propose that Messenia is simulated? there was constant fear of an uprising of the helots, rebel messenia is part of the athenaike sympoliteia anyway. Do you suggest that there should be an uprising only if the athenians win in Sphakteria? I am trying to make the scen more fun, but i want to be rather historically accurate as well

it is "pantognostis" (PANTOG(gamma)NO(omega)STHS), and you are just that when it comes to ancient greek matters

	12-05-2004 13:14									#33
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@Fairline: sounds really interesting: is there perhaps any textual basis available of this game? Maybe can be useful, mostly for game engine (cause somedody of us know Thkydides a bit ).
Good info, however!

@Varwnos:
Sorry, I didn't explain very well (the hurry ): Messenian threat wasn't absolutely simulated. But...
Messenia was really owned by Sparta - geographically. After 3th Messenian war (464-461 ca), the final agreement was: Ithome's Messenian sieged were free (Spartans followed a Delphic oracle about Ithome) to go elsewhere (out of Messenia), and Athenians gave them Naupaktos. So, during Pelops'War, there were not only helots' uprising (Spartans killed secretly 2000 suspected helots in 424ca bC), not so threatening, but mostly Messenian troops (from Naupaktos) joining Athenian army, and really dangerous cause their language was doric, and this really caused problems to Spartans at Pylos (Sphakteria affair) and during Messenians raid along Messenic and Laconian coasts (as Thukidides litterally reports ).
Hope I've been clearer now, and I'm sure yopu'll use this to give more flavour to your scenario (without change history ).
Bye

	12-05-2004 15:48									#34
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Thank you
Sadly i dont have a copy of Thukidides history, and i cannot find any complete e-text of it either, do you know any url where i could?

here is a pic of the map atm, apart from some details (some cities owned by sparta in the north, this will change) it is almost complete, apart from the Messenia affair. I will have to be carefull with this, but probably it will just be all owned by Sparte, and there will be some invasion depending of the outcome of Sphakteria, with a limited number of helots.

Most northern cities will be 'barbaric' but my plan to have the allied cities not be able to be conquered by their alliance (by placing an allience soldier inside them) for example Athena will not be able to conquer Plataiai, but Sparte or its allies will, on the other hand Sparte wont be able to conquer other cities. Not too sure if this a good plan, your views?
Possible list of independant cities:
-Melos (naturally)
-Mantineia
-Orchomenos (perhaps both of them, i am reffering to the Arcadikos now though)
-all of Achaia
-Epidauros
-some islands, like in Salamis

any reason why i should have independant cities inside Lakonia?

the most important question is the one about the corinthian colonies in Greece, any knowledge about towns/cities controlled by Korinthos outside its area? since atm it only controls five cities

Megara will probably be controlled by Eleia, unless it is independant. But Eleia needs a city near the conflict, not sure though

again expecting your comments

and another thing: can i use Alex's units? in his readme file he says that "supporting units" can be used without his permission, i guess that he means all his units though, i dont see which ones may be called supporting

Attachment: map1.gif
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	12-05-2004 19:04									#35
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@varwnos:
ultra-rapid answer (atm).
I don't see reason for non-Spartan cities in Lakonia.
I don't understand the question about allied units in cities to avoid to be conquered... I'm not so lucid...
IMHO, setting the relations between allies and giving appropriated objectives, allies won't combat each other.
But you know exactly what you have in mind
Meet you later

PS: Mantineia became enemy of Sparta, perhaps it shouldn't be put with Melos and Orchomenos (this one faithful Spartan ally).
Megara: I thought I suggested to put it in Korinthian civ, because of their common anti-Athenian interests, so you give another cities to Korinthioi and resolve (historically) Megara's question.
Elis... that's a bit more complicated, but it became hostile to Sparta (in 418 and in 401 bC). During the war, it mostly didn't make interesting action.

	12-05-2004 19:25									#36
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Do you suggest another player civ in the place of Eleia?

here is a pic from Kythera Kato Hora= Lower country. Kythera was called Hora as well, but that would be a bit too vague, so i named it hora kytheron, which just means kytherian country the port Skandea was taken by the athenians, the rest were left to the local perioikoi

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	12-05-2004 19:46									#37
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@varwnos:
in a Peloponnesos-based map, atm I can't think an alternative civs to Elis... If it will come any idea, I'll tell you.
Nice screen, I like these graphics more and more.

	13-05-2004 17:55									#38
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The map is almost complete, i decided that Mantineia will be with Eleia, and probably Megara will be with them as well, Korinthos has 7 cities, and should be ok. I havent decided what to do with the north though, aetolia and boiotea. Some arcadian cities are 'barbaric' so that Mantineia can get control of them, as happened historically.

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	13-05-2004 18:18									#39
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@varwnos:
Well, I'll expect to see it complete
I'm recovering my old pelops' project - many different - starting from map: I'll show you as soon as possible, it's my time to make choice (and I back often to Thykidides ).
I realize I have to put lots of cities... but always less than first attmpt !!! (I'll show it, too)
Well, player will only fight, no building or anything else.
WAR! Honestly I agrre with AlexMor old propose
But he made a map really less large...
Bye!

	14-05-2004 01:22									#40
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Hm, well this just makes things easier for me If there is no techological goal i dont even have to create tech trees! buildings will be possible ofcourse, and there will be a lot of buildings, but yes i guess that there wont be any research goal, but i will have limited strong units, and possibly give more strong units through events, so only weaker units will be built in cities, do you agree?
(wow, this is sooooooooo easy!) This means that i dont think it will take me more than a month to complete the scenario, if i manage to get enough events for it, i think that i will start a thread about events

	14-05-2004 14:34									#41
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@varwnos:
Nice idea: I'll join as soon as possible , I'll try to upload my map - maybe by PM, give a look

	14-05-2004 14:50									#42
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Hey, Varwnos (will you expalin me what it means "vawnos"??? )
I'm trying to send you my old Peloponnesian scenario map it's a *.scn file), while I'm working on the new one...
It was awful, full of cities, terrific!
Let me know if you receive it, and maybe what do you think about....

Attachment: pelop_1.scn
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	14-05-2004 15:53									#43
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Your file cannot be opened sadly... maybe you are using civ2gold? i am using civ2fw.

as for varwnos, it isnt a word with greek roots, it is the greek word for the word baron well, at the time i decided to have that as a nickname i was in a rather miserable state of mind actually i got the nickname from a short story i had written, where a couple of peasants are suprised in the night by the arrival of the baron of the region, but the fact that he is there, on his horse, in the night, ready to turn his face at them, is something more than they can handle (very gloomy)

Last edited by varwnos on 14-05-2004 at 16:00

	14-05-2004 19:59									#44
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Yes, I have civ2Gold, sorry...
Perhaps somebody can help you transforming in compatible format.
Maybe I could try send a *sav.file, don't know...
Try...

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	14-05-2004 22:38									#45
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quote: Originally posted by varwnos @ Fairline: perhaps you can post an url? It sounds interesting

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/spartan/spartan.htm

One of the nice things about it is it was made with modding in mind, so like civ2 everything is open architecture (bmps for units, text files for game parameter, unit stats etc)

	15-05-2004 03:14									#46
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Gagliado it doesnt load... you can always post a pic of the map

Fairline, the game looks nice, although someone who has played it said that it was no much for the total war series