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varwnos
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Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
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You can always propose terrain etc
Last edited by varwnos on 07-05-2004 at 12:05
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varwnos
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Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
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Korinthos
It isnt a port, it wasn't, its port is a city by itself as with other cities 
you can create movable expensive non military units in Korinthos and dismish them in the port, so as to build a fleet faster
 Attachment: korinthos.gif
This has been downloaded 120 time(s).
Last edited by varwnos on 07-05-2004 at 11:55
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varwnos
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Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
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And the map (originally from Sons of Hercules, but i am heavily modifying it where needed, added the cyclades, lower aetolia and other regions)
Ok, Stefan agreed that i may use his map & graphics, so i can now announce the obvious:
this is my scen about the Pelloponesian war
i am thinking of placing some sicelian cities as well, but due to the map (which otherwise is perfect, and counterbalances this only defect) i cannot:
-display the rebellion of Chios, in the end of the war
-display the asia minor coast campgaign (Lampsakos mostly)
-display the affair that started the war, Kerkyra's (Corkyrae) attempt to vassalise Epidamnos, and the Korinthian intervention, infact Kerkyra isnt in the map at all, sadly!
-the western islands are just a part of the Cyclades, but at least the important island cities of Melos and Delos are there
-the Aetolian city of Anactorion (Anactorium) isnt in the map (important in the beginning phases of the war)
-no macedonia or thrace!
to balance that however:
-the map has huge areas in both Pelloponesos and Attica, and the Theban conflict with Plataea and other cities can be displayed as well
-A lot of space makes it easily possible to seperate methropolis from their port cities (Stefan used that in his sons of Hercules scenario himself)
-The number of colony cities that can be placed is ideal so that the interdependence of the Metropolis and colonies can be shown in a civ2 game
-More detail in the allies of the Spartans, Elis (Eleia) and Korinthos are sides by themselves, and Argos (later involved in conflict against other pelloponesian cities, during the war) is a nation in the game as well.
-Messenia isnt a nation, it is part of the Athenian sympoliteia, but this is just as well, since it would have been unrealistic to try to conquer Sparta playing as Messenia 
Other ideas:
-i will try to depict some of the main battles, with open endings
-many units will be special "General" units
-possibly the hoplites will either be settler units (as in Sons of Hercules) or will only be given by events, which do you think is better?
-settlers will be military units (to prevent large scale terraforming, infact i dont think that the computer player will do any)
-Thebes (Thebai-Thevai) will be part of the Pelloponesian league, but this isnt entirely bad news, since the pelloponesian league atm (due to the fact that Elis and surrounding area is a nation by itself) mostly consists of arcadian cities, and bits and pieces from here and there, so Thebes will be its main city, thus making it a playable side too.
-I dont know what to do with other main pelloponesian cities, i am thinking of making Mantineia 'barbaric' for example, your views on this?
note: the map in the pic isnt complete in any way, nor are the cities controlled by the states they will be controlled by when that is done)
hope to get some feedback soon, bye for now
Attachment: map.gif
This has been downloaded 149 time(s).
Last edited by varwnos on 06-05-2004 at 08:54
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Gagliaudo
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of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
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çvarwnos:
sorry for my reèly so late: problems with those crazy telephonic company (they cut me off, but I always paid!!! They cut you in a second, but to re-active the line... how many days???  )
Immediatly - just seen your first map - I thought: S-W coast, Sphakteria (The 'woody' island), 425/4 bC...
PELOPONNESOS !!!
(I'm working about this project, too No matter )
Well, I'll read carefully all the rest of your posts, and I'll give a serious and the most complete reply, ok?
BTW, in the 2th jpg, the ship belongs to Kerkyra, obviously!
Ehy, my Pelop's project is quite different, I'm really happy to see you working on these events, really, keep on...
But I sincerly preferred your past idea...
S'you soon (even PM - did you recibe?)
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Gagliaudo
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of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
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@varwnos:
I hope it wasn't my fault if you left your original project...
I was really interested to see the end of your work about Greek colonies (my posts were only personal and obviously humble ideas, but the scenario was exclusively yours, and it sounded good).
You're yet in time to back to Colonies!!! Think about it!
I wont spam your threads/polls any more, I promise!!! 
You'll can put Tebe in Meszenia, Azinai in Tracya, Sparti in Croeta, Chorynth in Sikkylia and so on... I won't say a word (perhaps...: est modus in rebus...) 
Peloponnesian War is a great theme, however (It's a long time I'm working about ), kai duo scenarios kallion esti eis... mhhh not sure this ancient greek... 
I'm always ready to give an hand (I read and I recall Thukydides very well), I'm sure your project will help me, too.
That's one of the good things of Civ forums: to help themselves each other!
It needs talk about the first and one -just till now- scenario about Peloponnesian War, by AlexMor.
Alex the Magnificent is a great scenario designer, that's a fact, but I did never like too much his old (1997?) Peloponnesian scenario, mostly because of his awful (IMHO) choice and composition (and name-giving, of course! ) of protagonist civs and cities, (even if i think he didn't want restrain the action at the strictly Pelop War only, but who knows?) but he had good ideas in that (and others) scenario. However, I want repeat it, Alex needn't to demonstrate anything, this must be clear! He's a great, sincerly. His scenarios (the others... ) and graphics speak for him.
I often give a look to his webpage to see if there's any new, any update...
That's all.
However I'm thinking about a Pelop'Scenario since 1999(when I 'discovered' civ2), and mostly after I saw Alex's scenario! . Will I make it, one day???
That's the real MISTERY !
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varwnos
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Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
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Gagliaudo:
You had nothing to do with my decision to not go on with my greek colonies scenario, it just was too difficult to complete, and the limited space was very annoying since i had to place most of the cities next to each other and i hate that
i am always happy to talk with you
the other scenario would have been worse in the end, and "TO MH XEIPON BE^TISTON" (just imagine that ^=Lamda! Maybe they also meant that being the centaur Cheiron was the worse thing ever? just kidding )
my plan is to have a large scale war, with limited powerful units and vast space, so strategy will be crucial, and i hope that this will be an open ending scenario, in other words Sparte doesnt absolutely have to win
i cannot stress enough the importance of Stefan Hartel in this though:
- i am using his cities
-any new terrain is mostly edited by his graphics
-although many more cities are added, and other changed names, i am building this using his already placed cities in the Sons of Hercules scenario
so certainly i am very happy that he allowed this, he isnt at all egoistic about his work, and that is very nice!
As for you Gagliaudo i am sure that your Pelloponesiako scenario will be special, and i am looking forward to playing it when its complete
perhaps you can propose what the highlings of the scen should be
atm i am thinking mostly of the Argean entrance to the war (they went to war against Mantineia? i will have to re-read that) and also the Thebes-Plataiai war, and probably the entrance to Attica will be event driven, if the front collapses. Its all very general at the moment, but one of the units is called "ksylina teiche" (wooden walls) i am sure you know what kind of unit that is
here is a pic of the Spartan mainland
(oh, i almost forgot, can you come up with a list of cities that Sparta controlled before the start of the war? i mean Sparta, not her allies! And also Eleia-Elis!)
talk to you soon
Attachment: sparte.gif
This has been downloaded 107 time(s).
Last edited by varwnos on 08-05-2004 at 21:11
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Gagliaudo
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of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
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Hi Vawrnos,
well, I'm glad to not be a desperate cause of your recent change
Nice collocation of Messenian cities, except Messene (founded in IV century bC with the help of the same boring Thebans, allied with Messenians uprised against Sparta...). Maybe you can rename it ITHOME, and put it a bit NW, in the mounatin zone of Messenia (mostly a rich plan, otherwise Sparta would let it in peace, Lakonia had just enogh mountains and hills... ) ... Not really a city, more a fort ("phrourion") or a mountain ("oros") , but Messene will go OK (I don't want this scenario end like the old one...  )
About Eira: a bit N respect Messene/Ithome, I'll be more precise later.
BTW: did you see the map I posted in your old "AmericaOfAncientGreece" thread ?
XEIPON BE^TISTON... my greek get down... 'Worse hand' (work?)
Atm don't recall exactly the 'wooden wall'... perhaps Delion (ca 424 bC ??? That could be a good screenshot, if it's what I've in mind...  ).
Now I only remember "machron teichon" (or machra teiche)...
And ALexMor knew it, too 
BTW, IIRC, civ2 has a limit of 255 cities...
About cities number: years ago, when I was starting thinking a Pelops'scenario by me, I was quite sure that : lot of cities = lot of fun, giga map = giga fun... Later, I re-think about that...
"Est modus in rebus" (It needs to have moderation in things)
KALANIKTA 
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varwnos
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Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
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Wasn't a Messene earlier than that? What about that sicelian city that was renamed to Messene/Messena? (possible that it just got its name from the country's name, not some town's name?)
to mh xeiron veltiston: that which isnt worse, is better (or: anything is better than the worse)
ksylina teiche: wooden walls, that was the name of the ships, the athenians had gotten a reply from some oracle that their salvation lies in beulding wooden walls. instead of building real wooden walls they built a fleet, dont remember when that happened though, could be the persian wars!
Ithome already is in the scen.. but i will think of removing Messene (Kolonides is to the south of it, maybe it can replace it) if you will come up with a map showing where Eira is
btw there is an Eira in Argolis (exists even today) but i am not sure if it was important at the time, and there are 6 cities in a very small space in Argolis so i can choose from them
cities:
Mideia
Tiryns (Tirynthos)
Eira
some others (too bored to open civ2 and look!)
talk to you later, kalenykta (nyktwr ta polla, as ussual)
oh, i almost forgot!
here is a pic of some of the islands i made
Attachment: island alliance.gif
This has been downloaded 79 time(s).
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varwnos
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Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
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Hey Gagliaudo, i will ask you for help with the cities
one region at a time, i hope you wont be bored by this
really you are a great help in making in scenario
i will start with the north-eastern edge of the Pelloponesos (Argolis, south of that, and islands near Attica) and you can say which cities are ok for use in the scen, and also if you know anything about their size (but that is too much of a detail i guess)
here we go:
Korinthos
Lechaion
Kenchrai
Petra and Tenea (i can only use one, since they are too close to each other, atm i am using Tenea)
Prosymna and Dendra (same)
Tirinthos-Tiryns
Mideia
Nauplia (was it called Nauplia??? Nauplion sounds better, but i am not sure if it used to be called Nauplia)
Asine
Asklepeion (probably i wont use it, too close to Epidauros)
Epidauros
Troizena
Mases (dont know if i will use it, it sounds funny!)
Eileoi
Hermione
Halike
Methana (or Arsinoe, other name)
Island cities:
-in Hydra
Aperopia
-in Aigina
Aigina
-in Kalavreia
none
-In Belbina
none
thats all for now
Attachment: map.gif
This has been downloaded 59 time(s).
Last edited by varwnos on 10-05-2004 at 18:06
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varwnos
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Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
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And in Lakonia:
Sparte (if it was called Sparta i will have it as that, but i never saw it anywhere!)
Amyklai
Brysai, and Therapne and Pharis, probably not to be used, too close to Amyklai
pharis
Selinos (too close to Geronterai)
Glympeis
Akrai
Geronterai
Harpleia, or Krokaiai or Aigiai (one of the three will be used)
Gytheion
Las, teuthrone and Pyrrihos, only two of those three can be used
Psamathos
Kainepolis
Hippola and Messa (perhaps none of them will be used)
Oitylos
Kardamyle, Leuktron and Pefnos (only one of the three can be used)
Gerenia
Abia (too close to Gerenia)
Aiagonia
Kyparissia
Asopos
Karystos
Stenyklaros
here is a pic of Sparte, with the new mines (by me), and temple (by Fairline's graphics)
Last edited by varwnos on 10-05-2004 at 18:47
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varwnos
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Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
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@Gagliaudo: the url doesn't open... (i will try again)
@Stefan: glad you like the pics, as for Alcibiades, he will be there through events, i must say i dont really remember much about him, other than that he was the one held responsible for the disastrous defeat of the athenaioi to the syrakousioi. Originally i planned to place some magna grecia cities in the bottom left of the map, but i don't really see the point, since i plan to make armies very dependable on events, and the bulk of them will be there in the beginning, so careful planning will be needed. The one thing that the player can build in numbers are fleets, and Sparte will have to do that if it is to be successfull.
@Gagliaudo: i will need help with setting which cities are Pelloponesiake symmachia, and which cities are best left "barbaric" (independant). All of the Achaean cities will be independant though, this will probably lead to Eleia attacking them, but its the best solution i can think of. Making them Pelloponesiake symmahia is the other solution ofcourse, but it would dry things up. Mantineia and Orchomenos probably will be independant as well.
Oh another thing: do you know which cities were controlled by Korinthos? (colonies i mean) i am pretty sure that Zakynthos was, but i dont know which were the other ones (apart from the immediate Korinthian area).
Feel free to propose/write events
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varwnos
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Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
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The map rules Gagliaudo!
But some things arent at all clear, i was looking of a map of the different states at the time, and here it breaks up the regions according to tribes (ionian, dorian, others)
-Is the Cynuria (Kynouria, or Kynoureia, i don't remember atm) region owned by Argos? i think that it was conquered in the old Sparte-Argos war)
-What is the border between Megara and Korinthos? And in which nation should i have Megara? (i could have it as independant as well)
-What is the border between Messenia and Lakedaimonia in the start of the war? (Ampheia for example in this map is in Messenia)
looking forward to your reply
As for Eleia (Elis) i could use the modern border of it with Achaia, which is the one in this map as well (infact the map has borders identical with the modern ones, Pelloponesos today is divided into the regions of Eleia, Achaia, Korinthos, Argos, Messenia and Sparte) unless you know otherwise
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Gagliaudo
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of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
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@varwnos:
IIRC, Kynouria (-eia? ) was already owned by Sparta (like you told, in ancient wars against Argos).
Absolutely not important the Lakonia/Messenia border: Messenia was owned by Sparta, too (3 bloody Messenian wars, and you cancel "poor Spartans" conquest? ). Athenians desembarked on Peloponnesian coasts - (Messenic coast, too).
I think you could put Megara with Korinthos (Korinthoi own few cities, so you can give them an important one ) and I justify historically this: Megara had the same reasons of Korinthos in calling Sparta to declare war against Athenai...
Zakynthos was with Athenai, not with Korinthos.
Achaia join Spartan alliance after a time, but was neutral when war broke out. Make your choice, it depends on the balance between civs that you want set.
I know map doesn't represent situation in 433/2 bC, but I thought could be useful to your cities' collocation.
Most of cities in the map - IMHO - can be put in your scenario, unfortunately I'm not... 'pantagnozon'... (perhaps not correct, but you'll understand )
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05-05-2004 09:35
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