07-05-2004 23:59									#1
	How to Choose Among Similar Units ? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Please explain which is better and why:

Fighters vs Flak vs Mobile SAMs vs SAM Missile Battery (city improvement)

TOW Infantry vs Mech Infantry

Thank you.

	08-05-2004 00:59									#2
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Better for what? In general I will not build TOW, I will upgrade to them. I will build MI, if needed.

SMB are mainly useful to me if I expect to try for SDI. Fighters are better (IMO) than the Flak or Mobile Sams. I say that because, they have a range of 9 and can attack bombers without them coming for the city.

Flak vs Mobile only comes into play in terms of weither to upgrade or not. That is, you cannot build both at the same time. Once you get mobile sams, you lose flaks.

One more plus for jets is that they can be loaded unto carriers.

	08-05-2004 01:56									#3
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TOW, as far as I can guess, are there to make sure those Guerillas you had lying around get a boost that makes them practical for the Modern Era. Hence upgrades as Vmxa says

As for air wars, I've rarely had any - but I DO know that the one time the AI was big on bombing, I did a little math, picked out where he was hiding the planes and blew them out of him

	08-05-2004 21:08									#4
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As per vmxa1, I almost never build TOW infantry. While there's some validity in the argument that a stack of 4-6 TOW will probably out perform a stack of 4-6 MI in defense due to the def. bombardment, I actually find the MI more flexible due to their additional movement and ability to run back into your city after killing off that unit trying to lay siege to your city. What TOW i have are invariably upgraded warriors/swordsmen/berzerks

As for the mobile sam / SMB / fighter comparison, I generally prefer the SMB for 'home cities' and will typically airdrop a couple of mobile sams into a newly captured city (after the rushed airport of couse). The AI doesn't seem to like bombing my units while they're out in the open, so I rarely escort my units with mobile sams. That said, the only time I use fighters are on aircraft carrier groups. If assembling a modern naval SoD (not that there's any non-modern naval SoD), I try to supplement it with 4 fighters or so, but that's also partially to provide air cover to my marines in the newly captured coastal city.

	08-05-2004 21:20									#5
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I too pretty much never built TOW Inf. A Mech Inf defends better than a TOW supported by the defensive bombardment of another TOW against MA anyway.

I tend to rely on Fighters/Jet Fighters for aerial protection, but given the choice 'tween Flak/Mobile ws SAM Battery, I'll go for the former - they can easily be moved to face new threats, while city imps are static.

	08-05-2004 21:55									#6
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You guys are forgetting something... I love TOW Infantry for one very very excellent quality: HELICOPTERS. Deploying stacks of TOW Infantry into forward positions with the use of helicopters can be very very useful if you've already silenced any defending fighter cover in the area (a critical first step so your helicopters don't get shot down). TOW Infantry have a lot better defense than Advanced Paratroopers, which I almost never build.

Also, as previously stated, if you have enough TOW Infantry, they can actually be more effective at defense than Mech Inf, though the speed on Mech Inf generally makes them more useful if you're on the attack.

EDIT:

The main utility, however, is offensive deployment via helicopters to either chokepoints or critical tiles (uranium, aluminum, oil, rubber).

One unorthodox strategy I've used once was to deploy a stack of TOW Infantry and workers via helicopters to an advanced mountain tile (behind enemy borders). I had the TOW Infantry fortify on the mountain and the workers start on a fortress. The AI largely ignores the stack because it's already so well dug in. If he attacks with modern armor, he'll lose most of the time. When your own modern armor is advancing and reaches the mountain, they can use the tile to stop and rest any wounded units safely while healthy units press ahead. Once the front surpasses that tile, you can use your helicopters to redeploy the forward base again.

Having the small wonder that lets you heal in enemy territory helps a lot with this, of course.

What I haven't fully figured out is whether this strategy is worth the additional expense or whether I'd just be better off building more modern armor and just eating a few losses.

Last edited by Arnelos on 08-05-2004 at 22:01

	08-05-2004 21:59									#7
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Speaking of the mob sam vs. SMB, whats the rate of fire like on the units? ie. how many aircraft do they try to shoot down each turn. And are their effects accumulative (i doubt it, civ3 doesn't seem to work that say, old-sch honor system of fight one vs one...)?

Oh, and Arnelos, where exactly are your forward positions? I'm assuming that they're far behind enemy lines? If it's just reinforcing captured cities, then I'd think an instant worker airfield would be more useful in allow you to airlift serious amounts of reinforcements in.

	08-05-2004 22:02									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Goethe80 Oh, and Arnelos, where exactly are your forward positions? I'm assuming that they're far behind enemy lines? If it's just reinforcing captured cities, then I'd think an instant worker airfield would be more useful in allow you to airlift serious amounts of reinforcements in.

I just edited my post with that.

	08-05-2004 22:58									#9
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Why would ones armour be heading for that mountain rather than the nearest enemy city? I'm not getting exactly what this stratagem is supposed to achieve.

	09-05-2004 00:53									#10
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If he's thinking what I'm thinking, he simply means somewhere for the units to stop off as the line advances. Although, even then - the city is more use. But if the assault DIDN'T go to plan, then of course it always helps to have somewhere to escape to

Personally though, I've not found anything that whack good ol' arty and tanks

	09-05-2004 03:17									#11
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I use Flak and Mobile SAMs to accompany SODs... especially in an IC invasion sans Marines.

	09-05-2004 07:09									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I use Flak and Mobile SAMs to accompany SODs... especially in an IC invasion sans Marines.

I use Flak and Mobile SAMs to accompany my modern armor stacks where possible as well. I also use them to station in newly captured cities where I have Mech Infantry or TOW Infantry on defense, but are not where I've put the bulk of my airforce.

	09-05-2004 07:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Cerbykins If he's thinking what I'm thinking, he simply means somewhere for the units to stop off as the line advances. Although, even then - the city is more use. But if the assault DIDN'T go to plan, then of course it always helps to have somewhere to escape to Personally though, I've not found anything that whack good ol' arty and tanks

It's worth pointing out that a fortress on a mountain is a hell of a lot harder for the AI to take out than any city. The point is to have a forward "resting" spot for wounded units that is not as vulnerable to counter-attack in the event that the AI has a bunch of his OWN modern armor.

It also tends to soak up some modern armor that the AI uselessly sends against it rather than against your advancing modern armor stacks.

As I've said before, though, I too question its effectiveness versus just having more modern armor or using cities.

I normally only use helicoptered TOW Infantry to cut and then defend key tiles like strategic resources (especially oil and rubber) or perhaps a chokepoint if there is one.

	09-05-2004 08:11									#14
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The most important feature of the TOW Infantry is that they do not require resources. Thus, if you are still resource deprived in the Modern Age, TOWs can help save your bacon.

	09-05-2004 10:10									#15
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quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis The most important feature of the TOW Infantry is that they do not require resources. Thus, if you are still resource deprived in the Modern Age, TOWs can help save your bacon.

Yes, having played "Future Age" games as I know from talking to F-P you have, that's one of the main reasons I love the TOW Infantry so much. That said, most of the people posting in this forum are those who play SP epic games only and the context from which this seems to be approached. From that context, you generally assume that if someone hasn't secured a source of oil by the modern age, they probably have larger problems.

In Future Age or Modern Age starts, however, especially in MP games, TOW Infantry are incredibly important, as MTD points out, because they require no resources and are a kickass unit to boot.

	09-05-2004 10:49									#16
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Helos? There are in this game, your kidding right?

	09-05-2004 11:14									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Helos? There are in this game, your kidding right?

	09-05-2004 11:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos From that context, you generally assume that if someone hasn't secured a source of oil by the modern age, they probably have larger problems.

True; I haven't played many SP games where I haven't secured all the necessary resources by the modern age. That being said, if you do run into this situation, TOWs can be key in helping you secure said resources.

I'll grant you that this situation won't come up often, but the addition of TOWs to Conquests was an important one as it gives a player hope where they had absolutely no hope prior to C3C.

	09-05-2004 13:27									#19
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In a recentish game as the Carthaginians, I did get into the modern age without an Oil resource of my own, despite by then controling the entirety of my home continent (52% of total land area).

I was however able to trade for Oil, built an invasion force, and invaded, appropriately enough, America, taking their only Oil resource on the second turn of the war.

	09-05-2004 21:43									#20
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Arnelos I was being facetious. IOW saying I never have built a helo, so acting as if they are not really in the game.

(nevermind)

	10-05-2004 00:50									#21
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Arnelos I was being facetious. IOW saying I never have built a helo, so acting as if they are not really in the game. (nevermind)

Ah, I get it. I just didn't realize that by "helos" you meant helicopters.

(I saw "helos" and thought of the Greek word for the sun )

	10-05-2004 03:33									#22
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That's helios ...

	11-05-2004 20:48									#23
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I some times build TOW's just because I like them. Usually it's not necessary for me to drop units at chokepoints as I normally have an army big enough for hurting the enemy quite bad in one or two turns if I'll invade (love those armies of marines against infantry )

	12-05-2004 00:08									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist That's helios ...

Now you know part of why I posted the confused smily.

	12-05-2004 01:37									#25
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quote: Originally posted by SorvinoBackhand Fighters vs Flak vs Mobile SAMs vs SAM Missile Battery (city improvement)

First of all, always use Mobile SAMs over Flak, when Mobily SAM are available, since they are in the same upgrade chain. You do use Swordsmen over Warriors, don't you?

Fighers and SAM work almost the same way. Each has a chance to intercept enemy bombers (50% for non-stealth, 5% for stealth). If they intercept, they have a chance to shoot down enemy bombers. That chance depends on their attack strength. An SAM has the same attack strength as a Jet Fighter, and twice the strength of a Fighter. Fighters can be shot down, but SAM cannot. On the other hand, you can have as many fighters as you like in your city, but you can have just one SAM.

AA units like Flak and Mobile SAM have a lower chance to shoot down planes than SAM/Fighters, but they have the advantage of being able to protect your units in the field, and they cannot be shot down. They get a chance to shoot down any bombers that have survived defending fighters and SAM, so they can be used for added protection, even when you have Fighter cover.

Conclusion: SAM, mobile SAM, and Fighters, all have their uses for air defense. Which one to build depends on your situation.

quote: TOW Infantry vs Mech Infantry

Specialized roles aside (helicopter operations etc) Mechanized Infantry are always better defenders than TOW. The extra bombard shot of TOW (when you use them in stacks) does not make up for their lower defense.

	12-05-2004 01:54									#26
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Presumably, however, a mixed stack defends better than a pure of either kind.

Too tired to look at the math right now, so I'll only have it noticed that I very rarely have a need for much in the way of stacks of defensive units in the Modern Age.

	12-05-2004 01:57									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Presumably, however, a mixed stack defends better than a pure of either kind.

Not always. It depends on how many times it gets attacked each turn, and by what units.

	12-05-2004 02:00									#28
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quote: Presumably, however, a mixed stack defends better than a pure of either kind.

why build TOW, when you can build MA, which are slightly more expensive, but just as powerful bombarding (I think), but can attack as well? The only advantages of TOW are the lack of resources required, and the ability to airdrop them

EDIT: why do I bother answering, alexman should be a mod of the strat and AU forums, he's around so much.

	12-05-2004 02:02									#29
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Last Conformist is saying that a stack of a MI and TOW has a better chance of defending against a single attack than either a stack of two MI or two TOW, which is true.

	12-05-2004 02:05									#30
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Sorry, I thought he was talking about a larger SoD, which (one would presume) would attack as well as defend, to make the most of the unit support (if any)