15-05-2004 01:22									#31
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I am not disputing that point. I am only noting that the barbs do a lot of damage to you at the highest levels. You cannot send in that regular warrior and count on it killing the barb.
The only early units that I feel safe sending in are AC. so you do have some problems as you can't let the barbs roam around. You have to go get them.

They will often sit there even at Sid and do nothing while your one Knight kills them one at a time, but not always.

I think they had a good balance at one point in PTW. They made the barbs pillage when the town had a spear forted in it. They let the stacks attack that same spear. That made sense to me.

I hate it now when I hit a civs horsemen and it retreats with 1HP, while 8 barbs are next to it and do not even attack it.
I also hate it when my two vet horsemen are forted on a hill and 12 barb horses pound at them until they kill them. I have seen both.

All I am saying is I have to be a bit more circumspect about barbs and take some care. I do not have to do that at Mon or emp unless they have maybe 16 units.

	15-05-2004 01:44									#32
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I hate it now when I hit a civs horsemen and it retreats with 1HP, while 8 barbs are next to it and do not even attack it.

Your horsemen were NOT attacking from a position directly NW or SE of the barbs.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I also hate it when my two vet horsemen are forted on a hill and 12 barb horses pound at them until they kill them.

Your horsemen WERE in a position directly NW or SE of the barbs.

	15-05-2004 02:15									#33
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quote: All I am saying is I have to be a bit more circumspect about barbs and take some care. I do not have to do that at Mon or emp unless they have maybe 16 units.

I just don't understand some people. I told you all YEARS ago, to reduce the "attack advantage vs. barbarians" to ZERO in the editor (difficulty levels tab) at all levels you play (unless you're a newb). Didn't you all do what I told you to do???

JB
President of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society

Jeez, I hope this bug is easy to find ... and fix. If it is random whether they attack or not is fine with me, just so it isn't predictable that they won't.

	15-05-2004 02:24									#34
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One would think it would be easy to reinstate the PTW (or better yet, Vanilla) barb AI, but you never know; the game's got pretty complex. I'd be very disappointed if it's not addressed in the final patch, tho.

	15-05-2004 02:27									#35
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The term “final patch” caught my attention. Do you mean “potential” or “definitely forthcoming”?

	15-05-2004 03:09									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist One would think it would be easy to reinstate the PTW (or better yet, Vanilla) barb AI, but you never know; the game's got pretty complex. I'd be very disappointed if it's not addressed in the final patch, tho.

i just wonder how they screwed this up in the first place. if the barbs worked on PTW and vanilla, why change it? why the bug?

	15-05-2004 04:16									#37
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal The term “final patch” caught my attention. Do you mean “potential” or “definitely forthcoming”?

More like "mythical" or "legendary".

	16-05-2004 08:40									#38
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So how many things that worked fine in PTW did Breakaway Games break? I am not sure I even want to start another game until all the big problems are fixed.

	16-05-2004 09:25									#39
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Well, stonewall then maybe you might set your sights on different game, for we are definately in mytho-rumor-hopeful-maybe land with '...until all the big problems are fixed'. (Or maybe better to set your hopes on various peoples MODS)

I agree completely with Jaybe, the genius he must be to be the self-acclaimed President of of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society!

Not only set your advantage against Barbs to zero, come on guys you can do it! Also give them more powerful Barbs!!

Heck, my Barbs have muscle! Just check out these stats; Attack 5/ Defense 5/ HP Bonus 3 and move 1 ALL TERRAIN which in my Mod is 5 (road movement). Now when you go a roaming the big wide world, you do not send ANY 'one unit' unless it is a 'suicide mission' and you're just getting rid some 'maintenance' hassles.

Funny thing, the AI's adjust to this just fine anyways, it seems the human players are bit duff on this one.

	16-05-2004 13:39									#40
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quote: Originally posted by stonewall So how many things that worked fine in PTW did Breakaway Games break? I am not sure I even want to start another game until all the big problems are fixed.

Of the top of my head, in addition to breaking the Barbs, I can think of the submarine bug, A.I. workers not irrigating properly in Despotism, and the most annoying; the A.I. not knowing how to use Armies/Leaders. All these things were fixed in PTW.

Depending on how important you view these things, one could argue for going back to PTW for playing the Epic game. The main reason I stick with Conquests for the Epic game is the hope that a patch is coming to fix these things.

Come on Jesse, get Soren for half a day and let us know that a patch is on the way! You wouldn't want negative comments about unfinished products when you come to tell us about Civ 4, now would you?

P.S. I have also played with No bonus against Barbs at all levels since the early days of PTW. It is the only way to play!

	16-05-2004 22:45									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Antrine Well, stonewall then maybe you might set your sights on different game, for we are definately in mytho-rumor-hopeful-maybe land with '...until all the big problems are fixed'. (Or maybe better to set your hopes on various peoples MODS)

Oh, I will probably keep playing....can't help myself

When the barbs are fixed, I think I might beef them up...sounds like fun.

	19-05-2004 01:26									#42
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quote: Originally posted by JimMac ... and the most annoying; the A.I. not knowing how to use Armies/Leaders.

There's a very easy fix for this; just change the battle created unit from Leader to Army in General Settings. It will mean no rushing of Small Wonders, but at least the AI won't be able to waste their Leaders rushing Spearman.

	19-05-2004 01:35									#43
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That's not really a fix, since you will not be able to get battle-generated Armies once you already have one in the field. At least it will level the playing field though.

	19-05-2004 06:35									#44
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quote: Originally posted by alexman That's not really a fix, since you will not be able to get battle-generated Armies once you already have one in the field. At least it will level the playing field though.

Are you sure that this applies to battle created units and not just to Leaders themselves? Have you tested this?

	19-05-2004 11:47									#45
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quote: Originally posted by JimMac Of the top of my head, in addition to breaking the Barbs, I can think of the submarine bug, A.I. workers not irrigating properly in Despotism, and the most annoying; the A.I. not knowing how to use Armies/Leaders. All these things were fixed in PTW. Depending on how important you view these things, one could argue for going back to PTW for playing the Epic game. The main reason I stick with Conquests for the Epic game is the hope that a patch is coming to fix these things. Come on Jesse, get Soren for half a day and let us know that a patch is on the way! You wouldn't want negative comments about unfinished products when you come to tell us about Civ 4, now would you? P.S. I have also played with No bonus against Barbs at all levels since the early days of PTW. It is the only way to play!

hi ,

create a small scen , give the AI a couple armies and leaders , see what happens , ....

they do know how to use them , .....


have a nice day

	19-05-2004 21:00									#46
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quote: Originally posted by CyberChrist In all versions of Conquest barbarians will only attack or move to attack any unit (with the exception of units with a defence of 0) located in an exact NW or SE direction of barbarians themselves. ...

After all this time, I realize (through game experience) that I misunderstood the original statement. I thought he was saying they have to be ADJACENT in the NW or SE vector, but it could be 100 tiles away!

Hmm, I wonder if they could be activated by a unit on another continent?

	19-05-2004 22:17									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Are you sure that this applies to battle created units and not just to Leaders themselves? Have you tested this?

Yes, and yes.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=109124

	19-05-2004 23:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , create a small scen , give the AI a couple armies and leaders , see what happens , .... they do know how to use them , ..... have a nice day

Yes, they know how to use them, but they don't build them. They use any military leaders they get for rushing normal improvements or units rather than building Armies. Which means they'll never be able to build the Military Academy either.

	19-05-2004 23:24									#49
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Yes, and yes. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=109124

Damn, and here I was thinking it would be an easy solution. Looks like Antrine's solution is the only one available if I want the challenge of having Armies in the game.

It seems everytime I fix something I don't like in the game, another thing breaks. I've reached the point that I don't even want to play it anymore, to many loose ends.

	19-05-2004 23:53									#50
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Try the AU mod. It has tied many of the loose ends.

	20-05-2004 02:36									#51
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Speaking of battle created units, I discovered a weirdo bug relating to them - if the battle-created unit has a defense value greater than zero, an a victorious attacking Elite units will not advance into the tile of a vanquished enemy even if the tile was emptied of enemies, but if the vanquished enemy was the last unit on that tile, the battle-created unit will still be spawned in that tile. This can lead to really funny situations when the defender was the last one in a city - the battle-created unit is spawned in the city, but the city is not captured.