08-05-2004 14:31									#1
	Barbarians! Bug? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

In all versions of Conquest barbarians will only attack or move to attack any unit (with the exception of units with a defence of 0) located in an exact NW or SE direction of barbarians themselves. A unit positioned in any other direction - no matter how close - wont even make the largest horde of barbarians move an inch or take any initiative to do anything but get slowly killed one by one over the following turns.

Since barbarians was for more active in previous versions of Civ I can only assume this is in fact a bug and one that appears to have been overlooked or ignored so far. I for one would like to see it fixed.

	08-05-2004 15:22									#2
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Interesting observation... It is well known that Barbs in C3C are neutered - they always tracked down your workers/settlers/undefended cities in PtW and were pretty ruthless then. Not sure why the change for C3C though....

	08-05-2004 20:04									#3
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I think they wanted to make barbarians a bit smarter. Rather than trying to attack strong units they have no chance at all to kill, they aim for weaker targets, pillaging or attack if nothing else can be attacked.

I'll look for the NW/SE-attacking that CyberChrist discovered and see if the same thing happens in my games. My it is a kind of workaround that the designers made or forgot

	09-05-2004 06:22									#4
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quote: Originally posted by CyberChrist In all versions of Conquest barbarians will only attack or move to attack any unit (with the exception of units with a defence of 0) located in an exact NW or SE direction of barbarians themselves. A unit positioned in any other direction - no matter how close - wont even make the largest horde of barbarians move an inch or take any initiative to do anything but get slowly killed one by one over the following turns. Since barbarians was for more active in previous versions of Civ I can only assume this is in fact a bug and one that appears to have been overlooked or ignored so far. I for one would like to see it fixed.

hi ,

what version and patched or not , ....

have a nice day

	09-05-2004 09:42									#5
	Re: Re: Barbarians! Bug? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by panag what version and patched or not , ....

Hmm, I would think that I already said that by saying "In all versions of Conquests..."

	09-05-2004 10:44									#6
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I posted a thread on this when C3C came out. Citing several silly situations. More than a dozen barb horsemen forted next to a single unit defending a town and not being willing to attack.

They would sit there while say a horse or AC will kill one each turn. It is very sad. I just had an uprising of 16 units not willing to attack a single AI horse, that was damaged. They just moved past it.

	09-05-2004 12:56									#7
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Yep, the C3C barbs are a shame.

I'll keep my eyes open for that NW-SE phenomenon - I seem to recall having seen barb attacks in other directions, but I'm not certain.

	09-05-2004 14:25									#8
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Yesterday I started to play on a map of Arda (The world Tolkien wrote about, see the files-section). This map has a lot of huts and that means a lot of barbarians. I kept and eye open for this phenonema and it's true! They will only attack units on the NW-SE-axis. If your are NW of a barbarian and there are more barbarians on the same axis, they will move against you. If you move, they will stop.

	09-05-2004 16:18									#9
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This must be a bug then.

	09-05-2004 18:48									#10
	Re: Re: Re: Barbarians! Bug? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by CyberChrist Hmm, I would think that I already said that by saying "In all versions of Conquests..."

hi ,

so one can asume hat you have disks of all versions , from all languages , ......

funny how the barbs on this end dont have that bug , ....

so , ...... what versions is a nice Q , .....


have a nice day

	10-05-2004 02:10									#11
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Have the latest patch installed. I won't bother with trying with earlier patches, but it happens with my version anyway. English version, don't know if there's a difference in UK and US

	10-05-2004 04:04									#12
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Barbarians! Bug? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by panag funny how the barbs on this end dont have that bug , ....

Are you sure you understood the problem correctly? Barbarians will ONLY move toward nearby 0 defence units or toward ANY unit that is in their direct NW or SE path. Also single barbarians on barbarian camp will only ever move to kill 0 defence units. This does not mean they will only move directly NW or SE themselves, but they will stop moving once there is no units in NW or SE direction of them.

Just to make sure than we are talking about Conquest expansion only.

If your version works diferently (which I doubt) then could you please post your laguage version/patch # as well as a few screenshots from consequetive turns showing you either barbs not moving during those conditions and/or moving during other conditions (remember far away units will trigger them to move also - if in a direct NW/SE direction).

	11-05-2004 01:19									#13
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Barbarians! Bug? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by CyberChrist Are you sure you understood the problem correctly? Barbarians will ONLY move toward nearby 0 defence units or toward ANY unit that is in their direct NW or SE path. Also single barbarians on barbarian camp will only ever move to kill 0 defence units. This does not mean they will only move directly NW or SE themselves, but they will stop moving once there is no units in NW or SE direction of them. Just to make sure than we are talking about Conquest expansion only. If your version works diferently (which I doubt) then could you please post your laguage version/patch # as well as a few screenshots from consequetive turns showing you either barbs not moving during those conditions and/or moving during other conditions (remember far away units will trigger them to move also - if in a direct NW/SE direction).

hi ,

well maybe its due to mod and other scen rules , but huh tried with units all around and nope , they go for each direction , .....

anyway , a message is send to the makers , just in case , ....


have a nice day

	11-05-2004 08:28									#14
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This bug is hardcoded, has nothing to do with mods, scenarios or any possible player setup (unless you are really talking about AI player that has been modded to represent barbarians).

What language and patch version are you playing with?

	11-05-2004 12:18									#15
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panag is a Mac user. Quite possibly the game has some difference between PCs and Macs.

Is there even a C3C or v1.22 patch for Macs?!?

	11-05-2004 12:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt panag is a Mac user. Quite possibly the game has some difference between PCs and Macs. Is there even a C3C or v1.22 patch for Macs?!?

hi ,

correction , both mac and windows , ....

and one of the few on apolyton who run windows on a mac , .....

well when there is time the original shall be tested , according to a couple people who also use mods and scens it could be due to that that they dont see it neither , ....

then again there are others who can confirm , .....

but hey , thats civ , always intresting , it never fails to come up with something new , ....

who nows what else lays ahead for us , ....


have a nice day

	11-05-2004 13:57									#17
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I didn't know Conquest was released on the Mac?
Please pay extra attention to the fact that this problem ONLY exist in the Conquest expansion to Civ3 (afaik) - in Vanilla and PTW barbarians behaves as one would expect.

	11-05-2004 14:01									#18
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quote: Originally posted by CyberChrist I didn't know Conquest was released on the Mac? Please pay extra attention to the fact that this problem ONLY exist in the Conquest expansion to Civ3 (afaik) - in Vanilla and PTW barbarians behaves as one would expect.

hi ,

take one mac , take one copy of XP pro or dev , let one comp expert install it and there you go , ....

the only reason as to why panag has windows is to play civ , .....

and yes is about conquests , ....

have a nice day

	11-05-2004 15:42									#19
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I've tested it in Debug mode in c3c 1.22, and can completely confirm it. Not entirely sure how far away the units may be in the NW-SE axis, but I think 4 tiles.

The Barb do nothing, until a Def=0 unit appears, or a unit in the NW/SE directions. However, the fiercely attack anything in that direction (like Infantry with Warriors).

A different q, maybe someone can confirm it:

Anyone ever seen the AI using Bombardment against Barbarians?

	11-05-2004 20:13									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski I've tested it in Debug mode in c3c 1.22, and can completely confirm it. Not entirely sure how far away the units may be in the NW-SE axis, but I think 4 tiles. The Barb do nothing, until a Def=0 unit appears, or a unit in the NW/SE directions. However, the fiercely attack anything in that direction (like Infantry with Warriors). A different q, maybe someone can confirm it: Anyone ever seen the AI using Bombardment against Barbarians?

hi ,

nope , and its funny how they go with an horsemen after a tank , ....

have a nice day

	12-05-2004 01:40									#21
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Gak!

How the heck did we end up with something like this? I want the Vanilla barbarians back!

	12-05-2004 01:59									#22
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Good job CyberChrist.

This information could help Firaxis locate and fix the bug in time for the final patch.

	12-05-2004 03:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by alexman This information could help Firaxis locate and fix the bug in time for the final patch.

Ahh.. mention again of the near mythical final patch. If this is to appear in June, do you not think we should have heard some rumblings about beta tests of this by now?

It might be time to bump your quite excellent thread on simple fixes Alexman, which should still be 'stickied' IMHO.

	12-05-2004 06:44									#24
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Personally, I would have preferred that I never SAW this thread! Now I know how it works and I had never realized it before -- I never knew when they would attack.

	12-05-2004 12:34									#25
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Heh heh, I first noticed it back in december, but only just now realized noone else seemed to be aware of this (apparently including Firaxis/Breakaway). Lets just hope they hunt down the cause of this and fixes it with next patch.

	13-05-2004 20:57									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MoonWolf Yesterday I started to play on a map of Arda (The world Tolkien wrote about, see the files-section). This map has a lot of huts and that means a lot of barbarians. I kept and eye open for this phenonema and it's true! They will only attack units on the NW-SE-axis. If your are NW of a barbarian and there are more barbarians on the same axis, they will move against you. If you move, they will stop.

Oooh, Arda. I'm now glad I opened this thread.

to Cyberchrist for noticing the exact trigger for the barb attacks. I had never gotten beyond "hmm, sometimes they attack, but mostly they just sit there."

-Arrian

	14-05-2004 22:03									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

i believe this is a very serious problem. barbarians have enough disadvantages than to NOT attack an obvious target. to make the barbarians PREDICTABLE with this bug takes thair effectiveness down to near zilch. i hope they fix this soon.

	14-05-2004 22:39									#28
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At Deity and Sid you have no bonus VS barbs. This means they are very dangerous. As you move towards that 800 bonus on Chief, it gets predictable.

Anyway I have lost many units to barbs even vet swords. A single spear is not enough to be safe with no bonus against them. Pikes usually are enough against an uprising, but I would want two, not one.

	14-05-2004 23:57									#29
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@Firaxis: Fix this now!

	15-05-2004 00:08									#30
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 At Deity and Sid you have no bonus VS barbs. This means they are very dangerous. As you move towards that 800 bonus on Chief, it gets predictable.

i believe this bug affects ALL difficulty levels vmxa. you can predict where they will and will not strike, regardless of your bonus against them