09-05-2004 05:34									#1
	Newcomer to Apolyton, current game log Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Greetings!

I have recently rediscovered the joys of CivII after a few years of not playing. Back when I was playing a few years ago, I had no problem playing at Prince level (surprise, surprise), but King routinely gave me troubles.

In the past few weeks, I have started playing again at the Prince level, which gives me no problems at all. I have just stepped up to King, and figured I would post my current game log for all to see and comment.

=== begin game log ===
Normal sized world, King difficulty, raging hordes, standard rules, playing as the Americans.

Game start: I get irrigation, mining, roads (duh), alphabet and code of laws!

[1] 4000 BC: Lykaon looks across the plains towards a distant river delta, "There is where I shall settle and build my empire."
Start at coordinates (93,31), about mid-latitude north of the equator. We have a single settler , but he is next to a river, with wheat, forests, some ocean, desert, and plains within his view. Two river tiles are shielded grassland.
Settler moves northeast to river. Next turn will move to mouth of river and found first city.

[2] 3950 BC: "If we are to keep this village as our own, we must be prepared to defend it with our lives."
Washington founded at mouth of river and begins building warriors.

[3] 3900 BC: "We cannot just leave dead bodies lying around all over the place. Figure out something to do with them... have a ceremony or something."
Ceremonial Burial research started.

[4-6] 3850-3750 BC: "We're sorry, our chief is... indisposed... at the moment."
Zzzzzz...

[7] 3700 BC: "Wow, that burial idea really took off. Maybe I should claim divine inspriation and lead these people. Hey! Yeah, you guys with the stone axes! Why don't you go see what's beyond this river delta instead of hitting each other all the time... see where all this water comes from."
Ceremonial Burial research complete. Monarchy research started.
Warriors produced at Washington. Warriors begin exploring upriver.

[8] 3650 BC:
Warriors explore river. River is very short. Hut in forest adjacent to river headwaters, which we ignore for now. Headwaters seem like a decent place for city site #2 (on river, access to shielded grassland, 2 turns by river to reach capital). Warrior production in Washington switched to settlers. Washington is undefended!!!

[9] 3600 BC:
Warriors exploring headwaters. Settlers in production.

[10] 3550 BC:
Warriors continue exploring westwards. Weat nearby. Ocean to west.

=== turns 11 to 20 follow ===

	09-05-2004 05:35									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

=== turns 11 to 20 ===

[11] 3500 BC:
Warriors continue exploring.

[12] 3450 BC: "What am I supposed to do with this black... goo?"
Warriors continue exploring. Oil in desert to south of site for city#2.

[13] 3400 BC: "Zzzzzz..."
Warriors continue exploring.

[14] 3350 BC:
Warriors continue exploring.

[15] 3300 BC: "Zzzzzz... *yawn* *stretch*."
Warriors continue exploring.

[16] 3250 BC: "What? Yes, that's right... the gods themselves told me to tell you folks that they want me to lead you. Apparently our burying all those corpses kept us from offending their delicate godly noses or something. What? Mix copper and tin together? You've got to be kidding me... okay, prove to me that it can be done."
Monarchy research completed. Bronze Working research started (choices were bronze working, map making, masonry, pottery, warrior code, and writing).
Revolution! Monarchy government established. Tax set at 3.0.7 (tax.lux.res). 9 turns for research.
Warriors continue exploring. Found whales in small "lake", found second river about 4 tiles south of Washington... possible city site #3.

[17] 3200 BC:
Warriors explore second river. River has hut nearby, oasis. River is mostly grassland passing through plains/desert.

[18] 3150 BC:
Warriors reach ocean to the east. Fish near mouth of river. Good spot for city site #3 (fish + oasis). Tile that gives fish + oasis + wheat + whales is a desert tile. Washington was using the wheat anyway...

[19] 3100 BC:
Warriors head upstream. Find another hut.

[20] 3050 BC: "Okay... see this shiny stuff? It can be yours if you get off your collective arses and get out of town!"
Washington rush produces settlers.
Warriors continue upstream. Headwaters of river possible location for city site #4?

=== turns 21 to 30 follow ===

	09-05-2004 05:37									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

=== turns 21 to 30 ===

[21] 3000 BC: "And stay out!"
Settlers produced at Washington. Production of more settlers commences. Settlers head upriver to city site #2.
Warriors continue exploring. Coastline heads southwest... will explore along the coast for a while.

[22] 2950 BC:
Settlers reach city site #2, will build on next turn.
Warriors continue exploring.

[23] 2900 BC: "They what? Another village? And they want me to lead them too?"
Settlers found Lovettesville. Lovettesville starts building warriors.
Warriors continue exploring.

[24] 2850 BC:
Warriors continue exploring.

[25] 2800 BC:
Warriors continue exploring.

[26] 2750 BC:
Warriors continue exploring. Lots of plains west and south of city site #4.

[27] 2700 BC: "And it's harder than either of the two metals alone? Neat! Maybe we can make this shiny stuff into something more easily handled."
Bronze Working research completed. Currency or Horseback Riding? Currency chosen... will tip huts for possible Horseback Riding.
Warriors continue exploring.

[28] 2650 BC:
Warriors continue exploring. Find buffalo about 4 tiles west of city site #4.
Warriors produced at Lovettesville, fortifying. Lovettesville production changed to settlers.

[29] 2600 BC:
Warriors continue exploring. Find another hut. Will tip next turn to maybe get Horseback Riding.

[30] 2550 BC: "I'm rich! Now go make me another village."
Warriors tip hut for 50 gold. 76 gold in treasury.
Washington rush builds settlers.

=== turns 31 to 40 follow ===

	09-05-2004 05:38									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

=== turns 31 to 40 ===

[31] 2500 BC:
Settlers produced at washington. Production of more settlers commences. Settlers head to mouth of second river (city site #3).
Warriors continue exploring.

[32] 2450 BC:
Warriors continue exploring. Find coal. Coal/buffalo/oil city site would be in the ocean.
Settlers en route to city site #3, will tip hut on the way (risky?).

[33] 2400 BC:
Settlers tip hut for 50 gold. 98 gold in treasury.
Warriors continue exploring. Desert north of coal.

[34] 2350 BC:
Warriors continue exploring. Desert is small, with grassland on the other side.
Settlers reach city site #3, will build next turn.

[35] 2300 BC: "Hey, these... coins... they're pretty cool. Put my face on them and we'll use 'em. What are you doing? Okay, if you want to play with those big... dog-like things, then fine."
Currency research complete. Choices are Horseback Riding, Trade, Map Making, Writing. Chose Horseback Riding for faster exploration. Will choose Trade next (will Trade be available next?).
Settlers found Norfolk. Norfolk starts building warriors.
Lovettesville rush builds settlers.
Warriors continue exploring. Find wheat north of desert. Wheat/coal/oil city site is grassland on coast. New city site #4. Old city site #4 is now city site #5.

[36] 2250 BC:
Lovettesville produces settlers. Production of more settlers commences. Will switch to horsemen when research is complete.
Settlers tip hut en route to city site #4 for 50 gold. 70 gold in treasury.
Warriors continue exploring. Land is narrowing, we may be nearing the end of the world here...

[37] 2200 BC:
Warriors continue exploring. Possible isthmus ahead? If so, we have a potential choke point, though it's only plains and not the most defensible position.

[38] 2150 BC:
Warriors continue exploring. Isthmus turns out to be a peninsula . Time to explore somewhere else.
Lovettesville will need some irrigation in the not too distant future. Washington is okay for now.

[39] 2100 BC:
Settler reaches city site #4. Will build next turn.
Warrior backtracking to nearest black tiles, hoping for some more land.
Currently netting 3 gold, 8 beakers per turn. Must have more!

[40] 2050 BC:
Warriors produced at Norfolk, fortifying. Production in Norfolk switched to Settlers.
Settlers found Charles Town on city site #4. Charles Town starts building warriors. Charles Town is producing 4 food, 2 shields, 1 trade and 1 beaker.
About 2 turns until Horseback Riding research is completed.

=== turns 41 to 50 follow ===

	09-05-2004 05:40									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

=== turns 41 to 50 ===

[41] 2000 BC:
Warriors finally reach black tiles and continue exploring. More plains...

[42] 1950 BC: "You can ride those things? Someone really needs to scribble down where we've been."
Horseback Riding research complete. Choices are Map Making, Masonry, Mysticism, Polytheism, Pottery, Warrior Code, and Writing (no Trade!). Chose Map Making for triremes and path to harbors, etc.
Warriors continue exploring. End of land to the east. Whales found! New city site #5 chosen, though we may fight with Charles Town for wheat/coal. Old city site #5 now city site #6.
Warriors returning to Washington. Stupid me has left Washington completely unprotected for 42 turns!
Lovettesville production changed to horsemen, rush build.
Washington rush builds settlers. 53 gold in treasury.

[43] 1900 BC:
Washington produces settlers. Production of more settlers commences.
Settlers head for new city site #5.
Horsemen explore north from Lovettesville. Ahh, the joys of 2 movement! Wheat found.
Warriors returning to Washington.

[44] 1850 BC: "That many? What are you, rabbits?"
Civilization reaches 100,000 citizens.
Horsemen continue exploring... right into forests. So much for 2 movement.

[45] 1800 BC:
Warriors produced in Charles Town, fortifying. Charles Town production switched to horsemen.
Horsemen continue exploring.
Production in Lovettesville switched to settlers. Should have switched it when horsemen were produced.

[46] 1750 BC:
Horsemen continue exploring. Mountains and swamps found (yay).

[47] 1700 BC:
Horsemen continue exploring.
Partial rush build of Norfolk settlers. Halfway to completion now.

[48] 1650 BC: "We're [in]famous!"
Tacitus names our civilization the largest in the world!
Horsemen continue exploring... slowly.
Warriors still returning to Washington, e.t.a. 5 turns.
Settler still en route to city site #5, e.t.a. 3 turns.

[49] 1600 BC: "So _that's_ what it looks like when the gods are looking down from above... Hey, take some of these coins and see if you can find someone who wants them."
Map Making research completed. Trade research started.
Horsemen continue exploring... swamp.
Partial rush build of Lovettesville settlers so irrigation can begin.

[50] 1550 BC:
Horsemen continue exploring swamp. Grassland to the north! We can move 2 spaces again!
Returning warriors reach Lovettesville, will travel by river to Washington.

=== turns 51 to 60 follow ===

	09-05-2004 05:41									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

=== turns 51 to 60 ===
[51] 1500 BC: "We're... poor!"
Settlers reach city site #5, will build next turn.
Horsemen exploring grassland... only one grassland tile surrounded by forests. So much for 2 movement. Silk found, though.
Lovettesville and Norfolk rush build settlers. 4 gold in treasury.

[52] 1450 BC: "Welcome home!"
Warriors finally return to Washington. Washington is no longer undefended!
Lovettesville produces settlers. Settlers begin irrigation of river tiles. Production in Lovettesville switched to temple.
Norfolk produces settlers. Settlers en route to city site #6 via river, e.t.a. 2.33 turns. Production in Norfolk switched to horsemen.
Charles Town produces horsemen to guard the city. Production in Charles Town switched to trireme.
Settlers found Atlanta on city site #5. Atlanta starts building horsemen.
Horsemen exploring forests near silk tile. Find hut, will tip next turn. More grassland to the north!

[53] 1400 BC: "What is this giant statue I am hearing about?"
Aztecs begin building the Colossus!
Washington's warriors fortified.
Horsemen tip hut for Masonry, continue exploring into grassland.

[54] 1350 BC:
Horsemen continue exploring northern grassland. Find ocean and hills.
Settlers found Chicago on city site #6. Chicago starts building horsemen.
About 60 percent done with Trade research.

[55] 1300 BC:
Horsemen explore hills, plains on other side.

[56] 1250 BC:
Horsemen come down from hills and explore plains. Grassland and forest ahead.

[57] 1200 BC: "Someone actually gave you something for those coins? Incredible! Now find me something to put all these other coins in."
Trade research complete! Pottery research started.
Washington produces settlers. Settlers begin irrigation of river tiles. Production in Washington switched to caravan.
Horsemen continue exploring. No encounters with other civilizations yet. We may be all alone on a continent...

[58] 1150 BC: "Aw, come on, you can't suspend an entire garden! And what's with this giant pointy building I keep hearing about?"
Civilization reaches 200,000 citizens.
French begin building Hanging Gardens.
Aztecs switch from Colossus to Pyramids.
Horsemen continue exploring. Find buffalo.
Norfolk rush builds horsemen (preparation for Colossus?).

[59] 1100 BC: "I want a giant statue too!"
Norfolk produces horsemen to guard the city. Production in Norfolk switched to Colossus.
Washington partial rush builds caravan.
Atlanta produces horsemen. Production in Atlanta switched to caravan.
Horsemen continue exploring. Find and tip hut near recently-discovered buffalo for advanced tribe! San Francisco tribe begins building horsemen.


[60] 1050 BC: "We're still poor! "
Horsemen continue exploring. Find pheasant near San Francisco!
Washington partial rush builds caravan. 15 gold in treasury, income of 7 gold per turn.

=== turns 61 to 70 follow ===

	09-05-2004 05:43									#7
	Support Apolyton

=== turns 61 to 70 ===

[61] 1000 BC: "Zzzzzzz..."
Horsemen continue exploring.

[62] 975 BC: "Is there anybody out there..."
Horsemen continue exploring. Find and tip hut for Mysticism.
We are all alone on this continent. Trireme exploration and trade are now priorities.

[63] 950 BC:
Chicago produces horsemen to guard city. Production in Chicago switched to settlers for possible city sites 7, 8, 9 (and 10?) discovered by exploring horsemen.
Horsemen finished exploring continent, save for cleanup of a few black tiles. Horsemen returning to Lovettesville, exploring few black tiles on the way.

[64] 925 BC:
Zzzzzz...
Horsemen returning to Lovettesville.

[65] 900 BC: "Hey, a coin holder thingy! You know, someone really ought to find a place to put all these boats people keep leaving on the shoreline."
Pottery research complete. Seafaring research started for harbor and eventually navigation.
Washington rush builds caravan.

[66] 875 BC: "Everyone wants one of those big pointy buildings!"
Civilization reaches 300,000 citizens.
French switch to Pyramids.
Washington produces food caravan. Production of more caravans commences. Caravan en route to Norfolk.
Charles Town produces trireme. Trireme takes Charles Town horemen on a boat ride.
San Francisco produces horsemen to guard city. Production in San Francisco switched to settlers.

[67] 850 BC:
Lovettesville builds temple. Production in Lovettesville switched to caravan.

[68] 825 BC:
Washington's settler finished irrigation of river tiles and begins road to connect with Norfolk.
Atlanta rush builds caravan.
Trireme explores along coastline.

[69] 800 BC: "Love is in the air..."
Civilization reaches 400,000 citizens.
Atlanta produces caravan. Caravan en route to Norfolk. Production of more caravans commences.
Caravan from Washington reaches Norfolk and helps build Colossus.
Trireme continues exploring. Finds whales within 2 tiles of shoreline.

[70] 775 BC: "Land ho!"
Trireme continues exploring. Foreign shores ahead?

=== turns 71 to 78 follow ===

	09-05-2004 05:47									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

=== turns 71 to 78 ===

[71] 750 BC: "Um... kill that lookout."
Trireme continues exploring. "Foreign shores" turns out to be single forest tile.

[72] 725 BC:
Charles Town production switched from trireme to caravan... should have done this back in 875 BC when trireme was first built...
Trireme continues exploring, more foreign shores found.
Horsemen still returning to Lovettesville, e.t.a. 2 turns.

[73] 700 BC: "Hey, I like this dock idea. Maybe you can make some sense out of all this scribbling."
Seafaring research completed. Choices are Construction, Polytheism, Mathematics, Warrior Code, and Writing. Chose Writing for Diplomats. Writing research started.
Trireme continues exploring. Unloads horsemen on decent-sized patch of land.

[74] 675 BC: "Um... hello?"
Horsemen explore new land. Find English!
English demand Map Making, we give them Map Making, peace, cordial relations.
We give them trade, worshipful.
Propose share maps, they agree!
Looks like the English are also all alone on their own continent... 3 cities.
Trireme continues exploring English coastline.

[75] 650 BC:
Chicago produces settlers. Settlers en route to city site #7... not great site but not horrible (coastal plain with buffalo near). Chicago continues producing settlers.
Horsemen board trireme to avoid being boxed in by English units.
Trireme continues exploring English coastline.

[76] 625 BC:
Trireme continues exploring English coastline.

[77] 600 BC:
Atlanta caravan reaches Norfolk. Helps to build Colossus. Colossus time to completion is now 7 turns.
Trireme continues exploring English coastline.
Settlers reach city site #7, will build next turn.

[78] 575 BC: "Um... zdravstvuytye? You know, we really ought to have some sort of a meeting place for these foreigners. Hey Mark, what was that idea you had a while back...?"
Lovettesville produces caravan. Lovettesville production switched to Marco Polo's Embassy. Newly produced caravan helps build Embassy.
Charles Town produces caravan. Caraven en route to Lovettesville. Charles Town production switched to temple.
Washington produces caravan. Caravan en route to Lovettesville. Washington continues to produce caravans.
Settlers found Buffalo on city site #7. Buffalo starts building horsemen.
"White" units spotted near San Francisco. San Francisco horsemen move to investigate. White units are Russian.
Russians ask us for Seafaring in exchange for Iron Working and we agree.
Russians ask to for Monarchy in exchange for Warrior Code and we agree.
Russians demand Masonry, we give them Masonry, peace, enthusiastic relations.
We give them trade, worshipful.
Propose share maps, they agree!
Looks like the Russians are also all alone on their own continent... 4 cities.

=== end of game log for now ===

Well, there you have it. Any thoughts on how I might grow my civilization better, etc. would be welcomed. All of my cities are at size 4 or smaller right now... some with temples for when they grow a bit larger, some without. Taxes are still at 3.0.7 (tax.lux.sci) and I still need writing and literacy before I can move to the Republic.

Lykaon

	09-05-2004 11:18									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Welcome, Lykaon.

I suspect it will be easier to make suggestions if you post the game save as well as the log. The early switch to Monarchy is good. You have started to build the collosus in Norfolk - presumably this is your planned site for the SSC. BTW, the general view is that you should build caravans until you have sufficient to build the wonder in a single turn. Apart from anything else you can spend a few gold on incremental buying while building the vans to help things along. (That applies to MPE as well.)

The standard advice is trade, trade, trade. Now that you have discovered the English and the Russians, a ship chain to one or both carrying a stream of vans will fill the coffers and speed research.

Incidentally, while you remain in monarchy, it's worth getting your cities celebrating, but that may be tricky until you have a temple in each plus at least 1 good trade route.

Anyway that's my 2 bits worth.

RJM at Sleeper's

	09-05-2004 17:44									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I was reluctant to upload a save file along with the game log since I'm playing Civ II version 1.0 on a Mac (yes, it's that ancient). I assumed that nobody would be able to read the file; most people seem to be playing Millennium Gold Edition and some version much much higher than 1.0. I will see what I can do to attach the file a bit later today, in case anyone wants to try and read it.

It is interesting that you mention building caravans until you have enough to build a wonder outright. I had absolutely never thought of that, but it makes perfect sense! Why have a city waste time building a wonder when you can have it building other infrastructure or units. Let other cities build caravans and when there are enough, just pop out a wonder in a single turn. All this time I've had at least a couple of cities tied up building wonders for no reason, waiting for shipments of caravans to arrive. Live and learn, I suppose...

I have also never heard of the "ship chain" concept. I assume it means that you have a series of ships floating in the ocean linking two continents, so that units can board one ship, get transported to the next ship... and so on, spending as little time at sea as possible?

Right now I'm working on Marco Polo's Embassy and the Colossus. Any thoughts on what wonders I should build next? I think Lighthouse should be one, since it looks like an island hopping game so far.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Lykaon

	09-05-2004 18:01									#11
	Put an end to popups!

Well, here is an attempt at putting up a save file for people to view. I have no idea if it will be readable by anyone since it's from Civ II 1.0 on a Mac.

I tried to use the same naming conventions for the .sav and .zip file that I saw in other threads.

Good luck!

Lykaon

Attachment: kl_b575.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	09-05-2004 20:51									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Keep up the log, the commentary makes for a fun read!

	10-05-2004 01:03									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, getting an MGE edition won't cost you much I think; the game's old so the price will be next to nothing!

	10-05-2004 02:14									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You worked out the naming thing for the save and it unloads as version 2.42 custom.

Nice game you have going. Trade will be a big help with this island map.
good luck.

Monk

	10-05-2004 11:06									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by lykaon I have also never heard of the "ship chain" concept. I assume it means that you have a series of ships floating in the ocean linking two continents, so that units can board one ship, get transported to the next ship... and so on, spending as little time at sea as possible? Lykaon

That's the ship chain in a nut shell. With a fully functioning ship chain, you can deliver the cargo in a single turn. It works a treat when combined with railroads.

You asked about wonders. The "standard" set for an early landing is mpe, col, cop, shakes, ikes, darwin and perhaps seti at the end plus apollo of course. The lighthouse is much appreciated by our nautical brethren, but I don't build it. If you plan to conquer the world SWA plus Leos is a combination I like, although I believe there are some who disagree. HG is often used for the early hapiness issues. I don't bother with the other hapiness wonders, but they have their fans in special circumstances. KRC is regarded by many as more expensive than it's worth, but Hoover is good if you have a big empire with many factories. Some people like the pyramids, but I think they cause too many early unhapiness problems. Don't bother with the GL; you should be able to stay comfortably ahead of the AI by sensible research and tech trading. Generally Manahattan invites trouble that you don't need. I've never bothered with the UN or the GW.

I guess there are so many words there that its four bits worth this time.

RJM at Sleeper's

	10-05-2004 17:44									#16
	Support Apolyton

I'm glad folks could open the save file. At least now people can see how I'm doing as opposed to just reading logs.

I played up until 25 BC last night. Game log and save will appear sometime in the next day or two, depending on how much time I have. I just made it to Republic, and I have talked with all but one of the civilizations on the planet. For some reason I forgot to speak with the Aztecs at all. Oh well.

Things are still going slow for now. I founded some new cities and have sent a couple of caravans off to England to see what they can get for some hides and beads. The ship chain is still not complete since any trireme in the middle of the ocean is going to sink and I don't want to build a chain that hugs the coast, jumps to another island, and then hugs the coast again.

I think what I need to do at this point is either build the Lighthouse or Magellan's Expedition. At this point I think Magellan's is possibly the better choice... leave my two triremes as the coastal anchors for the ship chain and buid a couple of caravels for the open sea portions... with increased movement I may only need one caravel (or possibly zero with Magellan's).

Copernicus' Observatory is definitely on my list of things to build when it becomes available. I think I still need mathematics, though. My poor citizens have all this money but don't know how to count it!

Thanks for the help.

Lykaon

	10-05-2004 21:05									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Welcome, Lykaon! It's always great to have new people here, with new energy. I love your log with its quotations.

Detail to make your shipchains work: you send your loaded ship to a space where you have another ship -- then you wake up every unit on board, and then put them all back to sleep (it sounds stupid, but otherwise it won't work) -- and then you move them away on the next ship. That way the units expend no movement, and you can repeat the process all the way across the water and your units will still be able to move when they get there. Tedious, but effective. If you don't wake 'em up and put 'em to sleep, they stay behind. If you have to move 'em from one ship to the next, they won't be able to move again.

Always build your Wonders out of caravans. That way they get built sooner, and no one city is stuck building a Wonder that takes forever. When I started playing Civ I had no manual, so it wasn't until I played my seventh game, also King, that I learned you could get full value disbanding for Wonders. It made a HUGE difference in my game. The other thing I learned at the same time was the spectacular growth benefits of We Love the Consul Day in republic. Celebrate and grow!

Happy civving.

	10-05-2004 21:57									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The Mac version is a little harder to find, but should still be available for about $10 if you can find it.

	11-05-2004 00:30									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Lykaon, you did well founding your first two cities on a river. That gets you an extra trade arrow. You fortified your second Warrior in the second city rather than sending them out to explore - that might have speeded up your early exploration. You are playing King level, which gives you 3 content citizens per city until you get too many cities, so it's OK to leave the cities undefended until around 3000BC, and then have a Warrior or Horse close enough to get there on the second turn if Barbs land.

In general, it does not pay to use Settlers to road or irrigate till you've gotten the "core cities" laid down - about half a dozen, close to the capital but not too crowded.

You had the advantage of getting Alphabet and CodeLaws free, so Monarchy came much earlier than usual. I would have chosen Trade in 2300BC, particularly since it was "hidden" the next round. Trade gives you caravans, activates F5 (see other civ's cities sizes) and allows you to build Marco Polo for instant embassies. After that go for Maps and start delivering caravans overseas to nearby civs.

In 1550BC Washington's Wandering Warriors reached Lovettsville. You then moved them on to Washington. You could have moved Lovettsville's Warriors out the turn before and had them and the Washington ones reach opposite cities at the same time. For that matter, once you had explored around Lovettsville there was little likelyhood of a suprise attack there, but Barbs could have landed on the coast near Washington. So you should have moved L's Warriors out to cover Washington back in 2650BC.

I'm guessing that the early, Monarchy part of the game is not what gives you problems playing at King level. The switch to Republic is probably more difficult. To keep the unhappiness down you need infrastructure and trade so as to use Luxuries. Temples and Marketplaces are important in all cities over size 3, and you need to shift your research a bit to work toward MonoTheism so you can build Michelangelo's Chapel soon. You have been accepting several techs from other civs that are just going to add to the research cost of the techs you need - the Monarchy for Warrior Code trade was a particularly bad one (I try not to give away Monarchy at all, but I do give away Republic as it slows down the other civ's building rates and increases caravan delivery payments). Anyway, work toward Philosophy and then MonoTheism and try to time six caravans to near completion when you get it (or stockpile those you are building now).

Don't build a Food caravan anywhere until the city has three trade routes locked in. Keeping the flexibility to reroute a caravan to another use is invaluable. You cannot deliver a spare Food caravan for emergency gold or trade routes. You may be SURE at the time of building that this caravan will only be used for wonders, but you will probably change your mind later.

Instead of researching Horseback for faster explorers, research Writing for Diplomats. They can explore as fast as Horses, pop huts, bribe unexpected Barbs, and establish embassies. Plus you can build Libraries in cities with high trade. PLUS you can rushbuild the 3rd row on your way to more Settlers.

You are building Colossus in Norfolk, which was #3, right? I'm not clear on whether that site is the best SSC. Hanging Gardens might make a better choice, unless another civ was about to finish Colossus first. With enough cities to produce caravans you could easily get both wonders in your chosen SSC at King level.

	11-05-2004 02:11									#20
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by debeest If you don't wake 'em up and put 'em to sleep, they stay behind. Happy civving.

I've never "put 'em" back to sleep, just wake them. When the new ship leaves they will automatically go to sleep and move out on that ship. So, not quite so tedious after all.

Monk

	11-05-2004 02:23									#21
	Tired of ads?

quote: You are building Colossus in Norfolk, which was #3, right? I'm not clear on whether that site is the best SSC. Hanging Gardens might make a better choice, unless another civ was about to finish Colossus first. With enough cities to produce caravans you could easily get both wonders in your chosen SSC at King level.

Doesn't his capital look better for a colossus? Btw I didn't notice any other civ building colossus, not entirely sure though. Btw at a given time a phalanx/horesemen from the white civ on your own continent will ask for tribute (well the civ demanded it when I played a few turns on his save). I say crush those weasels!! :doitnow:

	11-05-2004 02:39									#22
	Tired of ads?

Aztecs were building Colossus, but switched to Pyramids.

Also, once you have Marco Polo you only need to get their attitude up to Cordial for a map swap, unless your Rep is less than Spotless.

	11-05-2004 05:58									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Thanks to all for the advice. Yesterday I played up to turn 100 (25 BC), so I didn't get a chance to implement some of the excellent suggestions mentioned here.

There's always the next game, though.

Elephant, I agree that Trade would probably have been better back in 2300 BC. I was hoping that it would be available the next time I could choose a tech to research, but I goofed and paid the price, waiting until 1200 (!) BC until I finally discuvered Trade.

You are correct that the rush to Monarchy is usually not a problem for me. The mid-game trip to Republic, when to celebrate, when to become Democratic, and so on is where I start to fall apart. You will probably start seeing all sorts of mistakes in this next set of logs that I post.

(memories...)
I remember a lot of my earlier games from a couple of years ago had me achieving and maintaining a large tech lead, only to have every nation upset at me. This is horrible for the later game, when they start catching up in tech... usually I have spent so much effort in research and advancement that my military suffers tremendously, and I get stomped from all sides fairly quickly. At that point in the game my reputation is usually miserable, so nobody wants to talk to me.
(end memories...)

I like the idea about the food caravans only when trade routes have been established. Flexibility is always a good thing. When the next batch of caravans start popping out they will most definitely not be carrying food.

I'll have to take a look at my capital and Norfolk to see what you mean regarding the Colossus. Shame I've already played the turns and the Colossus has been built or I might have switched things up a bit. Oh well, there's always the older save file or a new game.

Game log to follow: Turns 79 to 90

	11-05-2004 06:00									#24
	Support Apolyton

=== turns 79 to 90 ===

[79] 550 BC: "Hey you kids, get off of my lawn!"
Atlanta produces food caravan. Caravan en route to Lovettesville. Production in Atlanta switched to harbor for growth and trade arrows.
Washington produces food caravan. Caravan en route to Lovettesville. Washington continues producting caravans.
We talk with Russians. They demand Pottery, and we give it to them.
We insist on Russian troop withdrawal. They agree and then terminate talks.
Trireme exploring English coastline. Find whales. More land to the south of England.
San Francisco horsemen move north to scout for additional Russian troops. Finds Russian horsemen. San Francisco undefended!

[80] 525 BC:
San Francisco produces settlers. Settlers en route to city site #8, a coastal plain with whales nearby. San Francisco continues producing settlers.
San Francisco horsemen continue to chase Russian horsemen.
Trireme moves toward new land sout of England. Unloads horsemen. Horsemen tip hut for 50 gold and re-board trireme.

[81] 500 BC:
Trireme exploring coastline of new land. Finds wheat.
Washington settlers finish working on irrigation/roadwork. En route to city site #9, grassland coastline tile with silk nearby.
One Atlanta food caravan reaches Lovettesville. Helps build embassy. Embassy complete in about 6 turns.
San Francisco horsemen "cover" settler en route to city site #7, keeping Russian horsemen from approaching.

[82] 475 BC: "Hey, they sure put up that pointy building fast!"
Aztecs nearly finished with Pyramids.
San Francisco horsemen re-acquire Russan horsemen, move to restrict Russian movements.
Lovettesville settler finishes irrigating river. En route to city site #10, forest tile with 2 fish and wheat nearby. Tile will be converted to plains before founding a city.
Trireme exploring coastline of new land. Land may be a peninsula or a small island (2 city sites?)

[83] 450 BC: "Wow... that is... big. What? Some foreign guy wants some of our books? What's a book?"
Aztecs build Pyramids at Tenochtitlan.
French switch from Pyramids to Great Library.
Civilization reaches 500,000 citizens.
Trireme exploring new land. Finds hut. Horsemen unload and tip hut for 50 gold. Horsemen reboard trireme.
Settlers reach city site #8, will build next turn.
San Francisco horsemen continue working to pin Russian Horsemen.

[84] 425 BC: "You know, I don't think it looks like me..."
Norfolk builds Colossus. Production switched to temple.
Charles Town builds temple. Production switched to harbor.
Settlers found St. Louis at city site #8. St. Louis begins producing horsemen.
Trireme continues exploring new land. Finds buffalo.

[85] 400 BC: "Oh, _that's_ a book! Now what do you do with it?"
Writing research complete. Choices are Construction, Polytheism, Feudalism, Literacy, Mathematics. Literacy chosen for Republic path and Philosophy.
San Francisco horsemen pin Russian horsemen against coast!
Atlanta food caravan reaches Lovettesville, but does not contribute to Marco Polo's Embassy (Embassy only needs 8 more shields).
Trireme exploring new land. New land is an island with 3 potential city sites.
Buffalo production switched from horsemen to legion.

[86] 375 BC:
Settlers reach city sites #9 and #10. Will build at site #9 next turn. Site #10 requires clearing first.
Trireme returning home for settlers or caravans.

[87] 350 BC: "Hey, look at all these people from abroad! Where did all this money come from?"
Lovettesville builds Marco Polo's Embassy! Production in Lovettesville switched to temple.
Chicago produces settlers. Settlers start irrigating river. Production in Chicago switched to temple.
Washington produces hides caravan. Washington continues producing caravans.
Settlers found Detroit at city site #9. Detroit starts building horsemen.
We have more than 200 gold!
Norfolk rush builds temple.
Charles Town rush builds harbor.
Atlanta rush builds harbor. 43 gold in treasury.

[88] 325 BC:
Atlanta builds harbor. Production in Atlanta switched to temple.
Charles Town builds harbor. Production in Charles Town switched to caravan.
Norfolk builds temple. Production in Norfolk switched to caravan.

[89] 300 BC: "Hand over your cash, now."
Taxes set to 7.0.3 (tax.lux.sci) to generate cash for caravan production.
French develop Monarchy.
Aztecs develop Ceremonial Burial (this late?).

[90] 275 BC: "Everybody wants flowers these days..."
English begin building Hanging Gardens.
Japanese develop Masonry.
Civilization reaches 600,000 citizens.

=== turns 91 to 100 follow ===

	11-05-2004 06:02									#25
	Got spare money?

=== turns 91 to 100 ===

[91] 250 BC:
St. Louis produces horsemen to guard city. Production in St. Louis switched to legion.
Washington produtcion switched to trireme.
Norfolk rush builds caravan.
City site #10 cleared. Will build next turn.

[92] 225 BC:
Beads caravan produced in Norfolk. Caravan en route to Washington to meet with returning trireme.
Trireme reaches Washington. Horsemen disembark. Washington hides caravan loads into trireme.
Settlers found New Orleans at city site #10. New Orleans begins producing horsemen.
"Yellow" trireme sighted near Atlanta... empty?

[93] 200 BC: "Vive le Revolution! Um... what?"
French government overthrown.
Washington produces trireme. Production switched to temple. Washington's food box is full with 4 citizens and only one garrisoned unit! Oops.
Buffalo produces legion, fortifying. Production switched to harbor for growth.
Tax rate set back to 3.0.7 (tax.lux.sci).

[94] 175 BC: "Hey! Quit burning stuff! Dude, get out there and shake those hips, you hunka hunka burnin... whatever!"
French are now a monarchy.
Civil disorder in Washington! Elvis used until temple is built.
San Francisco produces settlers. Settlers en route to city site #11, grassland on coast. Site is currently adjacent to pinned Russian horsemen. San Francisco continues producing settlers.
Trireme drops off 2 caravans, headed for York and London.

[95] 150 BC: "Um... haw? Um... bonjour?"
Civilization reaches 700,000 citizens!
We talk with the Sioux. They demand Map Making. We give them Map Making, peace, uncooperative.
We trade Iron Working for Construction, receptive.
We give Writing, cordial.
We give Trade, worshipful.
We share maps. Sioux are all alone on an island between Russia and England. 4 cities, all size 3 or smaller.
We talk with the French. They demand Trade. We give them Trade, peace, neutral.
They want to trade Literacy to us. We are two turns away from finishing Literacy research, so we choose not to trade (mistake?). They end talks.
We talk with the Russians who are now uncooperative. They demand Writing. We give them Writing.
We try to give them knowledge, but they refuse?
Caravans encounter English units. English want to talk.
They demand Iron Working. We give them Iron Working.
We give Writing, cordial.
We give Seafaring, worshipful.
We share maps (again). English now have 6 cities. London size 4, York 3, rest are 2 and 1.

[96] 125 BC: "Um... hajimemashite?"
Atlanta builds temple. Production in Atlanta switched to settler for road network.
Charles Town produces food caravan. Caravan en route to Lovettesville. Charles Town continues to produce caravans.
Lovettesville produces food caravan. Caravan sleeps in Lovettesville. Lovettesville continues producing caravans.
Detroit produces horsemen to guard city. Production in Detroit switched to caravan.
We talk with the Japanese. They demand Bronze Working (?!). We give them Bronze Working, peace, neutral.
We give Iron Working, cordial.
We give Construction, worshipful.
We share maps. Japanese are all alone on an island in the southern hemisphere, about 20 tiles away from us. 4 cities, all size 1 or 2.

[97] 100 BC: "We're so awesome! What? That French guy wants books again? At least we now know how to read!"
Tacitus rates us as the largest civilization on the planet! (1 Americans, 2 Russians, 3 English, 4 French, (5 Aztecs? Haven't met with them yet.), 6 Sioux, 7 Japanese.
French have nearly completed the Great Library.
Literacy research complete! Choices are Bridge Building, Mathematics, Philosophy, Polytheism, Wheel. We choose Philosophy for free tech.
Chicago settlers irrigating river make a detour to tip a hut for 50 gold.
Washington rush builds temple, 79 gold in treasury.
San Francisco settler reaches city site #11. Russians want to talk.
They demand Literacy, we give them Literacy, neutral.
They won't exchange knowledge!
They won't accept gifts of knowledge! I think the Russians may be my first city subversion...

[98] 75 BC: "So _that's_ what all those books were for..."
French develop Republic!
French build Great Library in Paris!
French switch from Great Library to Hanging Gardens? They were double-producing the Library?
Aztecs develop Code of Laws.
Washington builds temple! Elvis retired and put to work in the fields. Production in Washington switched to harbor.
Settler founds Baltimore at city site #11. Baltimore rush builds phalanx for defense. Horsemen are already in city since it was built on their tile. In hindsight it was probably very dumb to waste the cash building the phalanx since if Russia attacked and won against the horsemen the city would disappear along with all that rushed production. If Russia had attacked and lost then there wouldn't have been any additional threat to the city, and production could have progressed at a normal pace... oops.
I chose not to talk with the Russians this turn since they might have declared WAR if I had asked them to leave.

[99] 50 BC: "Get off of my lawn! You know... all this leading is tiring. How about some of you guys help out making the decisions around here."
We talk with the Russians and insist they withdraw their troops. They comply. They still won't accept knowledge, though.
Charles Town food caravan arrives at Lovettesville and sleeps.
Phalanx produced in Baltimore, fortified. Production in Baltimore switched to horsemen.
We talk with the French.
We trade Construction for the Republic. Oedo year? Revolution!!!
They demand Seafaring. We give Seafaring, receptive.
We give Mysticism, cordial.
We give Iron Working, worshipful.
We share maps. French are also all alone on an island in the southern hemisphere, south of the Sioux. 6 cities, Paris 6, Rheims 3, rest are 2 and 1.
Our power is supreme and our reputation is spotless. I vaguely remember reading something about keeping a certain "key civ" near your level of technology to keep down research costs, so I give it a try. I think the Sioux are the "key civ".
We talk with the Sioux. They demand Republic. We give them Republic, worshipful.
We give Seafaring, Mysticism, Monarchy, Literacy, Warrior Code (which the French then get from the Library), and Pottery.
I have no idea if my research costs have changed because I was an idiot and forgot to check prior to giving away all that technology.

[100] 25 BC: "Hmmm... a senate?"
We are now a Republic! Tax rate set at 2.0.8 (tax.lux.sci) for now. Research is about 4 turns per tech.
Cities tweaked. No unhappiness. Cities biased for production rather than growth for now until caravans start rolling.

=== end of log for now ===

	11-05-2004 06:05									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

As before, comments, criticism, suggestions are all welcomed. Call me an idiot if I'm an idiot... because it's probably the truth. I am learning quite a bit from your replies.

For those of you who can read it, here's a save file from 25 BC.

Lykaon

Attachment: re_b0025.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	11-05-2004 10:32									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Can't stay and chat, but will come back tomorrow for more detail.

Here are two glaring points that will be helpful, I think.

1) Always accept a trade for the scroll (Literacy in this case) you are currently researching. The beakers you have accumulated will carry over, giving you a leg up on your next research.

2) Check the Diplomacy screen you got from Marco Polo. This would let you know the reason the Russ are refusing your tech gift/trade offers. They already know everything you know. Check your science screen and note the techs in white. These are the ones that some AI does not know. Checking the Russ, they have the three white techs you are carrying. Therefore, no joy.

Give some thought to this question, please. Why did you switch to Republic?? What is your goal, here??

Monk

	11-05-2004 11:28									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Check your science screen and note the techs in white. These are the ones that some AI does not know. Checking the Russ, they have the three white techs you are carrying. Therefore, no joy. Monk

Are you sure Monk? I thought white on your screen simply meant you discovered it first. And therefore it is possible that another civ lacks a tech that you have, even if it is not white on your screen.

One of us is going to be able to say "I never realised that".

RJM at Sleeper's

	11-05-2004 17:24									#29
	Support Apolyton

My guess is that one of Lycaon's problems is in dealing with Republic. It seems like one "should" use it once it's discovered, but most of us learned that it can actually be extremely limiting, especially re production. I know I had to really train myself to make it useful, due to the severe restrictions in production and military movement. (That's why many here play a Monarchy-to-Democracy-to-soft-Fundy method on Deity level.)

An effective Republic requires much happiness Iboth infrastructure and luxuries) and a minimal militia. Personally, I do like Republic, but more for quick city growth through WLTxD than anything else.

	11-05-2004 17:46									#30
	Got spare money?

Monk, I had no idea that the research carried over to a new tech if you managed to acquire the one currently being researched. That is a very useful bit of information!

As for why I switched to Republic, it's because that's what I pretty much used to do... monarchy, then republic, then democracy, and then things would really start to fall apart at King level (hey, it worked at Prince level, so it _must_ work at King level too! ). It must be my old habits of wanting to increase my technological lead. I guess at King level that's not necessarily the way to go any more.

I think Jrabbit hit the nail on the head. I usually switch to Republic soon after I gain the tech. That is what probably hampers me in the early part of the mid game, until the cities get big enough for production to compensate for the unit support costs.

Would a better path have been to remain in Monarchy until a lot more trade has been accomplished, then switch to Republic (or Democracy if it is available at that time) for growth? If so, maybe I'll increase the luxuries rate to get some cities celebrating and then drop back to Monarchy on the next Oedo year.

Regarding the different government types... I have not experimented much with Communism or Fundamentalism. I've used Communism a couple of times for the veteran spies, and I've stayed away from Fundamentalism since my games of long ago revolved around technological advance and I didn't want to hamper my research by hitting it with a bunch of religious ideology. Jrabbit mentioned that many players at Deity level go "soft fundy" at some point. What exactly is "soft fundy"? It sounds like something one might purchase at a carnival food concession stand.

"Get yer soft fundys right here! Get 'em while they're hot!"

Lykaon