15-09-2004 22:36									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Kobra @Curt: Curt, you're an angel under cover! I know you always have awesome sounds for your scens. Although I don't play with them, I always listen through them. I would be honoured if you could make me some sounds for this one!

He can't just make the sounds if the units are in the wrong slots. And you obviously can't switch unit slots at this stage as you have hundreds of pre-placed units. i.e. you need to take that into account before you start.

As for the gun emplacement, I didn't realize it could be destroyed. I'll try.

I'm at turn seven now. There was this all major cities lost message when they were still in allied hands.

Have some comments about unit strength but I need to collect my thoughts first.

	16-09-2004 17:09									#32
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quote: Originally posted by kobayashi He can't just make the sounds if the units are in the wrong slots. And you obviously can't switch unit slots at this stage as you have hundreds of pre-placed units. i.e. you need to take that into account before you start.

This has never been a big problem of mine. If the unit for instance have fighter abilities, the sound for the unit is automaticly chosen as the fighter sounds, as with war ships. And since I have little tanks in this scen, the horsefgt, swordfgt etc. will most likey match the infantries. I would like to try this out now, but I donīt have internet at home at the moment, and my civ-CD is back at my old house, but on the way by mail. So Iīll get back on this. If it wontīt work perfectly, I can live with a soundless scen or a unit or two with the wrong sound

So, what do you reckon, Curt?

	16-09-2004 19:41									#33
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Convert it to Test of Time? No sound slots there. And lots more events.

	17-09-2004 15:29									#34
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hehe, maybe I someday will...maybe I will I just donīt design scenarios with sound in mind when I start. How big a percentage do play with sounds?

	18-09-2004 20:47									#35
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Really enticing scenario. Has that uncommom quality that makes you want to continue playing. The concept of giving the Auntie Ju a paratrooper flag and holds at the same time was a critical factor.

Terrain is fantastically done, practically the best I've seen in a WWII scenario. Positioning and design of the map itself was meticulous - liked the border and neutral territory idea too. The way you have put the fjiords in to give sea access to so many cities was very nice.

High movement for sea units allowed multiple attacks by single ships - that was a nice touch.

Units look great

Now some negative comments - seems like a long list but its only because I'm putting it down in detail. Overall I had a great experience in the 18 turns I played.

1. Your planes have a much too high defense. I've lost several panzer companies attacking planes on the ground. Planes should have much lower defense - plus fighters have lower attack.

2. The Allies have overall air superiority - like three times my air power with those italian Caprioni jobs. The AI doesn't seem to make any other kind of aircraft in any quantity. I think the Norwegians had about 4? operational during the battle war but I've shot down two dozen and quite a few cities were razed by them. Would have been nice to see more Gladiators - and some tiger moths etc.

How about giving the Norwegians the royal air force tech (maybe RAF units to be made obsolete with the invasion of France?)

Also did not see any event that would give the tech french aid to the Norwegians.

It would be nice if the Germans could build flak units.

3. Aircraft Carrier too powerful with 5 hit points. A battleship wouldn't be able to kill it in direct engagement. There's absolutely no incentive to attack these brutes which can't attack anyway.

4. The small boats are more or less redundant. Didn't the Germans have E-boats (destroyer attack, patrol boat defense, lower movement allowance?).

5. I'm at day 18 and there was global warming with much of the map turning black. What a bummer.

6. Allied seapower has emptied all my western cities like Starvanger but with no allied troops arriving by sea I've simply left them empty. I think the Allies cannot make transports or any other kind of ships.

7. Maybe the JU-87 could be given just one turn in the air so it can make multiple ground attacks? Also the troop. Ju 52 could be allowed to carry only one unit at a time?

8. What I mentioned about no sound.

Last edited by kobayashi on 18-09-2004 at 22:02

	19-09-2004 05:05									#36
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I play with the sounds on.

	19-09-2004 06:47									#37
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What?

	19-09-2004 09:25									#38
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Excellent scen that perhaps could use one minor addition. . . . a README file to explain the function of any esoteric units like the Ju-52 (Transporter) would be helpful so every player doesn't have to reinvent the wheel by figuring it out for himself.

I don't suppose there is any way to keep all Danish terrain visible if one prefers to play with the "Show map grid" on?

Don't waste your time in adding noise files. I never play Civ with the noise on.

Silence, yes . . . music, maybe. . .noise, never.

	19-09-2004 19:14									#39
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quote: Originally posted by kobayashi Really enticing scenario. Has that uncommom quality that makes you want to continue playing. The concept of giving the Auntie Ju a paratrooper flag and holds at the same time was a critical factor. Terrain is fantastically done, practically the best I've seen in a WWII scenario. Positioning and design of the map itself was meticulous - liked the border and neutral territory idea too. The way you have put the fjiords in to give sea access to so many cities was very nice. High movement for sea units allowed multiple attacks by single ships - that was a nice touch. Units look great Now some negative comments - seems like a long list but its only because I'm putting it down in detail. Overall I had a great experience in the 18 turns I played. 1. Your planes have a much too high defense. I've lost several panzer companies attacking planes on the ground. Planes should have much lower defense - plus fighters have lower attack. 2. The Allies have overall air superiority - like three times my air power with those italian Caprioni jobs. The AI doesn't seem to make any other kind of aircraft in any quantity. I think the Norwegians had about 4? operational during the battle war but I've shot down two dozen and quite a few cities were razed by them. Would have been nice to see more Gladiators - and some tiger moths etc. How about giving the Norwegians the royal air force tech (maybe RAF units to be made obsolete with the invasion of France?) Also did not see any event that would give the tech french aid to the Norwegians. It would be nice if the Germans could build flak units. 3. Aircraft Carrier too powerful with 5 hit points. A battleship wouldn't be able to kill it in direct engagement. There's absolutely no incentive to attack these brutes which can't attack anyway. 4. The small boats are more or less redundant. Didn't the Germans have E-boats (destroyer attack, patrol boat defense, lower movement allowance?). 5. I'm at day 18 and there was global warming with much of the map turning black. What a bummer. 6. Allied seapower has emptied all my western cities like Starvanger but with no allied troops arriving by sea I've simply left them empty. I think the Allies cannot make transports or any other kind of ships. 7. Maybe the JU-87 could be given just one turn in the air so it can make multiple ground attacks? Also the troop. Ju 52 could be allowed to carry only one unit at a time? 8. What I mentioned about no sound.

Thank you for this thorough feedback, kobayashi!

You have, together with other comments, made me realise that I might have to do some minor adjustments to the scen. At the same time I will add some sounds, or noise, or whatever And it certainly was a mistake to make the readme in a hurry . For you, AGRICOLA, I might add an alternative border graphic

That global warming bug sounds horrific. What triggered it?

I'm very glad you enjoyed the scen, kobe.

I'll get right on the case, so this is the time for anyone to throw in comments or mere suggestions for change

quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA I don't suppose there is any way to keep all Danish terrain visible if one prefers to play with the "Show map grid" on?

Hmm, I don't quite follow you

	19-09-2004 20:19									#40
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I'm glad to hear you're going to revise it, Eivind. You should take a look at your unit costs. Some powerful units are cheaper than weaker ones, eg. the bicycle troops.

More basic is the question of why the Germans can build units in Norway at all. Or why things like battleships, aircraft, etc can be built in a timeframe of 62 days?

As for the global warming, your border squares are ocean covered by polution, no? There are two ways to deal with this: 1) add a number of solar plants. Each one will counter the effects of 2 pollution squares. 2) get some computer wiz to hex edit global warming out of your scn file. This permanently eliminates global warming from your scenario. Allard's paper on hex editing will tell you where to find the correct byte.

	19-09-2004 20:36									#41
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh I'm glad to hear you're going to revise it, Eivind. You should take a look at your unit costs. Some powerful units are cheaper than weaker ones, eg. the bicycle troops. More basic is the question of why the Germans can build units in Norway at all. Or why things like battleships, aircraft, etc can be built in a timeframe of 62 days?

Will check out!

quote: Originally posted by techumseh As for the global warming, your border squares are ocean covered by polution, no? There are two ways to deal with this: 1) add a number of solar plants. Each one will counter the effects of 2 pollution squares. 2) get some computer wiz to hex edit global warming out of your scn file. This permanently eliminates global warming from your scenario. Allard's paper on hex editing will tell you where to find the correct byte.

Of course, hehe , the pollution triggered the global warming. Hex editing, eh? Were can I get this paper by Allard? To be honest, I don't really know what hex editing is. Only that it solves many problems. Anyone here know a computer wiz that can help me?

	19-09-2004 23:10									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kobra For you, AGRICOLA, I might add an alternative border graphic.

Thanks, but it's already a done deal.

I don't have a vendetta against your borders but I really couldn't read any of the important information at the top of the city windows. The borders are nice and actually remind me a great deal of the strings of flags that decorate Swedish Christmas trees.

quote: Originally posted by Kobra Of course, hehe , the pollution triggered the global warming. Hex editing, eh? Were can I get this paper by Allard? To be honest, I don't really know what hex editing is. Only that it solves many problems. Anyone here know a computer wiz that can help me?

Allard's paper gives a procedure for eliminating global warming but I think that there may be a better way. In Curtsibling's DICTATOR 3 I have cities producing 140 shields with no pollution. I haven't had the time to figure out how he does it, but it seems much simpler than Allard's approach. Perhaps you might ask Curt.

quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA I don't suppose there is any way to keep all Danish terrain visible if one prefers to play with the "Show map grid" on?

What happens on my game map is that when the grid is not on, all of Denmark is visible, as it should be. However, if the grid is turned on, the zones of influence of cities as well as the actual city squares turn black for all Danish cities. Unfortunately, I always play with the grid on.

As everything else is fine, I doubt that I have a corrupted file. However, if it doesn't happen to you, I'll happily download again.

	20-09-2004 08:49									#43
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Agricola - pollution is turned off so it doesn't matter how much the production of cities are.

As mentioned by techumseh, it is the border with Sweden that is causing the global warming - seems strange that no one encountered this, with close to 100 polluted squares, GW is bound to happen.

Eivind, I've actually been fiddling with your scenario so that I can play a game to the end. If you like, I'll post the changes for you later when I have finished with it.

	20-09-2004 11:48									#44
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@kobayashi: Understand.


Why not keep it really simple by changing all the border squares to mountains and possibly put a fortress with a coastal battery on top. That'll get rid of the global warming problem due to polluted oceans without recourse to hex editing and also keep German aircraft from using Swedish air space.

	20-09-2004 14:24									#45
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Please do, kobayashi

	20-09-2004 23:31									#46
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A bit of good news and some not so good.

quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA What happens on my game map is that when the grid is not on, all of Denmark is visible, as it should be. However, if the grid is turned on, the zones of influence of cities as well as the actual city squares turn black for all Danish cities.

This one is easy to fix. In ICONS there are two side-by-side boxes with black diamonds. The right one has a white band around it. Flood the black in this one with violet and the problem disappears.

quote: Originally posted by techumseh As for the global warming, your border squares are ocean covered by polution, no? There are two ways to deal with this: 1) add a number of solar plants. Each one will counter the effects of 2 pollution squares. 2) get some computer wiz to hex edit global warming out of your scn file. This permanently eliminates global warming from your scenario. Allard's paper on hex editing will tell you where to find the correct byte.

I changed the border squares to Snowy Mountains + Fortress, getting rid of the border markers and the pollution. Is it possible that the pollution caused by border markers is due to the fact that the border marker icon in Terrain1 is in the box that normally has the icon for pollution?

The bad news is that this did not get rid of global warming. It took place on turn 18, right on schedule.

I did hexedit the game in accordance with Mercator's latest version of Allard Hofelt's compendium on hex editing Civ2. As suggested, I changed byte 50 to be >80. That did not stop global warming.

The compendium was originally for FW and the FW file structure differs somewhat from MGE's. Possibly this is one of the places where there is a significant difference.

The only thing that seems certain is that global warming takes place with astonishing speed. Consequently, there must be a lot of squares that the program considers polluted. The only non-standard feature on the game map is the number of black squares. Are all or some of these somehow the source of the problem?

	21-09-2004 12:48									#47
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No, there's no difference here...

But, um, how are you counting your bytes? It should be byte 51 (hex offset 33) that must be changed, and it must be hexadecimal 80 (= 128 decimal) just in case you got that wrong.

	21-09-2004 14:29									#48
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA I changed the border squares to Snowy Mountains + Fortress, getting rid of the border markers and the pollution. Is it possible that the pollution caused by border markers is due to the fact that the border marker icon in Terrain1 is in the box that normally has the icon for pollution?

The border marker is pollution.

quote: Originally posted by Mercator No, there's no difference here... But, um, how are you counting your bytes? It should be byte 51 (hex offset 33) that must be changed, and it must be hexadecimal 80 (= 128 decimal) just in case you got that wrong.

So, do you reckon this can be fixed by hex-editing, or do I have to do cook up a new cunning plan?

	21-09-2004 15:58									#49
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I could swear it's been done before, so yes, it can be fixed... Also, there must be an option in the Cheat menu somewhere to turn off pollution. I'm not sure what effect that has.

You'd also need to turn off the global warming message (that will still appear, even if it doesn't have any effect).

It's all in this thread, by the way. In the first post, and further down an explanation by Allard in reply to a question by Harlan.

	21-09-2004 21:28									#50
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Unfortunately, my offsets have been correct. The "50" in my previous post was a typo.

I checked out a number of things to try to isolate the problem and did not get much wiser.

Finally, I started a game of vanilla Civ with 3 civs. Playing Romans and using the cheat mode, I built a size 22 city with adequate food and 380 tons of pollution. Then I:

A
1. Set scenario parameters (cheat mode) to no pollution and saved it as a scen.
2. Opened the scen and toggled through 20 turns. No global warming.

B
1. Set scenario parameters to no pollution but added 10 polluted squares to the map and saved it as a scen.
2. Opened scen and had immediate global warming.

C. 1. Hexedited the scen file from B so that bytes 50 and 51 were 90 (hex) and then saved it.
2. Opened scen and got global warming.


Conclusions:
1. Having existing pollution at the beginning of a scen overrides the no pollution toggle.
2. As subsequent removal of the pollution has no effect, something else must be permanently altered in the game file.
3. The suggestions in the hex-edit compendium do not seem to work.
4. Eivind screwed up his scen by using pollution as a boundary marker.
5. I have been wrong in assuming that all designers actually playtest their work.


Next steps:

1. Check Mercator's link to see if there is an easy hexedit fix.
2. Hexedit the pollution out of the scen file. Right now there is no guarantee that this by itself will fix the problem. This is definitely a last resort.
3. If all else fails, Eivind may have to face the horrors of redoing the scen. Just kidding, I think that the problem can be fixed, now that it is more or less defined.

	21-09-2004 22:26									#51
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@Mercator

Very interesting and instructive thread, especially the slightly off topic posts.

Yes, I found the relevant posts and have downloaded them.

My next step is to make sure that the fixes work for a regular game. If they work, then I'll try them again on a scenario.

There is still the possibility that the pollution may have somehow changed something in the scen file that cannot be bypassed by the fixes.

Thanks for the tip

	21-09-2004 23:05									#52
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA 3. If all else fails, Eivind may have to face the horrors of redoing the scen. Just kidding, I think that the problem can be fixed, now that it is more or less defined.

If all else fails, it's just to open the original *.sav I have and remove the pollution, right? If it can't be hex editied away I'll figure out something. No worries

I havn't lost hope yet. Your job is highly apreciated, AGRICOLA!

	22-09-2004 05:23									#53
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The attached zip of of your scen should be OK. I've fast forwarded it through 2 global warming cycles (to turn 36) and there is no pollution.

I should have had this sorted out much sooner, but obviously my record keeping leaves a great deal to be desired.

The final fix was to put 80 in both bytes 32 and 33 (all numbers hex).

43 49 56 49 4c 49 5a 45 00 1a 2c 00 bf 81 40 f2
3f 00 04 00 c0 00 00 00 06 00 00 00 01 00 01 00
ff ff ef 00 76 01 00 03 03 03 ff 01 03 00 29 08
39 01 80 80 00 00 16 01 00 00 dd 02 74 00 5b 00

If there is any problem, please get back to me ASAP.

Having watched them fight innumerable times, I must say that you have a very fine looking set of units.


@kobayashi
Try hexediting your turn 17 save by changing bytes 32 and 33 as follows.

43 49 56 49 4c 49 5a 45 00 1a 2c 00 bf 81 40 40
00 00 00 00 80 00 ff 03 06 00 00 00 11 00 11 00
ff ff 32 00 ec 02 00 03 03 03 ff 00 03 00 29 08
39 01 0f 80 00 00 16 01 00 00 3b 03 74 00 5b 00

The above is a copy from the turn 17 save in the game that did not produce pollution.


EDIT: The attachment failed. Please see next post.

	22-09-2004 05:31									#54
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Let's see if this works.

EDIT: I downloaded the zip and ran the the scen through 18 turns. There was global warming but no pollution. You may want to remove the global warming messages from the GAME file.

Attachment: norway.scn.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

Last edited by AGRICOLA on 22-09-2004 at 06:05

	22-09-2004 06:18									#55
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If this is the deal, I owe you big time! Thank you very much! You might have to do that hex edit thing later on if it's not to much trouble, after I have made some changes for the update...

How does it look after 62 turns, which is the maximum of days to play before the Allies retreat to France?

Again, many thanks for the effort!

Last edited by Eivind IV on 22-09-2004 at 06:32

	22-09-2004 06:35									#56
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On day 35 I got a message that the poles were melting, but nothing happened The same happened on day 47. And 52. So, it's just to remove the the global warming messages in games.txt, and everything should work perfectly, right?

	22-09-2004 06:37									#57
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I'll be happy to do any hexedit if it is needed.

But PLEASE don't ask me to fast forward the present version another 44 turns. By fast forward I simply mean that Germany sits there doing nothing except hit the End Turn button. I get the lovely job of watching all the battles. Not exactly high class entertainment except that one gets a feel for the the relative strengths of units and the speed with which the Norwegian forces are reinforced, either through building or events.

It's a real bummer of a job.

Very much looking forward to the final version.

	22-09-2004 06:40									#58
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Houston, we got a cross post.

Yes, everything should be fine.

	22-09-2004 06:47									#59
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I just hit 'set human player' on the cheat menu, and selected 'no human player'. Took me 5 minutes to "play" through the scen

	23-09-2004 09:13									#60
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Actually int he version I'm 'working' on I've manually removed the pollution - took several hours of wrist wrenching mouse clicking. I introduced another tribe and used its units (removed British Calvary changed to immobile sea units) to block up the border river. Removes the need for house rule and the temptation to sail up to narvik.

Found several other issue which I am checking out now, including events creating land units at sea - impossible, and units in the warrior, knight and musketeer slot.