11-05-2004 11:09									#1
	Value of Cloning Vats Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Just how valuable are the Cloning Vats to everyone? I realize that most games against the AI are over by this point, but for that matter most of them are over before you start. However, many multiplayer games I played were decided when someone claimed the Vats.

I planned out a lean tech path that would lead to Biomachinery in 28 techs. Notable inclusions on this path are IA, EnvEcon, MMI, and BioEng. Notable omissions are PlanEcon, PSA, Fusion, and Orbital Spaceflight (all those would cost at least 9 more techs).

With the absence of Hybrid Forests and nutrient satellites, the only good tile to crawl for food is a condensor-farm, which yields 4.

My question is whether it is worthwhile to grab the Vats well in advance of having easy nutrient sources. Condensor-farms are nice, but consume many former turns that could be spent on boreholes, energy parks, or land raising. Also consider that boom-deficient factions such as Aki benefit from the Vats much more than, say, Deirdre or Domai.

	11-05-2004 13:39									#2
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Cloning Vats are good....but I'd rather have the Telepathic Matrix.

	11-05-2004 16:31									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Cloning Vats are good....but I'd rather have the Telepathic Matrix.

Does the TM eliminate drones or just eliminate the possibility of having a revolt? When I built the TM, I still had lots of drones in my cities.

	11-05-2004 16:38									#4
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Does the TM eliminate drones or just eliminate the possibility of having a revolt? When I built the TM, I still had lots of drones in my cities.

Yaaay, you just answered your own question!

Telepathic Matrix only eliminates drone riots, not the drones themselves. It also adds +1 to probe morale if you haven't gotten enough SPage to max it already.

	11-05-2004 17:18									#5
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Methinks, pointing directly to Cloning Vats can prove useful if youre in a peaceful company.. and youre any of these facs: Hive, Cycon, Pirates
Othervise just switch to Planned/Demo + CCreche or FM/Demo and maximise your energy and Psych bonuses trying to get GoldenAge (it gives you very useful +ECONOMY too)

Othervise the lack of fusion power will make you 2fold weaker than the others..so far no agressive or erratic human player has traded Fusion Power for any other tech with me..
Only pacifists trade it often enough, but for a high price though.

	11-05-2004 19:23									#6
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The fact that The Telepathic Matrix eliminates the ability of Drones to riot always seemed silly to me, because now the player just eliminates all Pych spending and lets everyone become a Drone!

That seems rather inconsistent with the Happy Utopia the Film sugests. Would be better if it just pasified all Drones (like an Infinate Rec Commons) then all your people are "content" even after you put Pych at 0% and the effect is basicaly the same.

	11-05-2004 20:05									#7
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The Vats are huge for any faction that can't pop boom (easily) and can be pretty big if you want to stay in FM or Green ( now penalty free in effect)

However a game is not over if you fail to get the Vats in multiplayer IMHO. At least I HOPE its not decisive since I didn't get the Vats in my vet6 game over at CGN LOL.

	11-05-2004 20:17									#8
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Cloning vats indeed is not too much of advantage if someone else by that time gets Singularity Inductor for example..
Just kidding!
How can one jump from BioEng to Sing Mech?

	11-05-2004 20:18									#9
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Flubber it is not decisive if at least 2/3 of your cities have +6 Growth induced by Golden Age + proper SE!

	11-05-2004 21:42									#10
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Flubber it is not decisive if at least 2/3 of your cities have +6 Growth induced by Golden Age + proper SE!

True but my very point was that it is NOT decisive--

However there are consequences when deciding to boom without the Vats

getting to +6 growth by necessity means that other options are foreclosed--- For example you can't go green with penalty free allocation to 100% labs.

Going planned has efficiency consequences that get worse as the empire gets bigger.

With the Vats I like going demo/green/knowledge with 100% labs allocation. I usually find that this combination out-techs any other in the mid-game

	11-05-2004 23:52									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber True but my very point was that it is NOT decisive-- However there are consequences when deciding to boom without the Vats getting to +6 growth by necessity means that other options are foreclosed--- For example you can't go green with penalty free allocation to 100% labs. Going planned has efficiency consequences that get worse as the empire gets bigger. With the Vats I like going demo/green/knowledge with 100% labs allocation. I usually find that this combination out-techs any other in the mid-game

Yep exactly. Also consider the implications of lack of penalty for Power and/or Thought Control.

Allowing incredible research and easy elites.

	12-05-2004 00:04									#12
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I believe Vats is very powerful, especially for factions that are hard to pop boom, like the Hive. When you ICS sometimes it is hard to get pop boom by going into Golden Age too because of all the structural drones.

	12-05-2004 00:47									#13
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GA Booming without the Genome is problematic until you can build Paradise Gardens. Those odd base size stalls require a lot of work and planning to overcome.

IMO, the Vats is best for all the boom-challenged factions, and is barely worth it for those that can boom without major effort. Hive, Morgan, Pirates, Cyborgs. Barely worth it because for factions that can boom easily (creche, Dem, Planned, no GROWTH penalty) there generally isn;t a lot of time left to play in the game once you can build Hab Domes. That is, the point at which being able to boom while staying GREEN is usually very shortly before the game ends. It is not that costly to boom your bases to the 14/18 range (in turns of efficiency lost) provided you aren't trying to stay in a perpetual boom...a 5 or 6 turn boom every 10 turns or so is quite affordable.

50 rows is a VERY expensive project.

	12-05-2004 00:52									#14
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OTOH, negating the penalties of both Power and Thought Control in the late game might make it worthwhile for anybody.

And, of course, there is always the benefit of denying it to a boom-challenged opponent.