11-05-2004 11:51									#1
	Big jump to Emperor Remove this text

Just startet my first game on emperor yesterday. Is the jump in difficulty from monarch that big, or did I just get 'lucky' with the maps?


Started on a medium-sized continent with 3 AIs, I got Germany on the norhtern (jungle)tip of the continent. By the time I got out of there, the AIs had already met and shared techs. The AIs ask silly prices for techs, even on the cheapest ones they want like 150% of the research prize. The more expensive ones(which could be traded around) are simply out of reach. I am also out-rexed(no bonus-food, access to water far away). Only managed to squeese in 4 cities(I can get 3 more in between as camps..)


The two options I can think of now are:
1) Suicide galleys. I have lost 3 currags already, more will follow. Only problem is that the unknown civs will probably me more advanced than me as well

2) War! It is still early ancient age and I'm still on par with the AIs in military tech. If I build for war, I could do the usual 'give me what I want or be destroyed' trick...The AI is such a lousy commander I may be able to pull it off despite being last in everything.

	11-05-2004 11:59									#2
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Just startet my first game on emperor yesterday. Is the jump in difficulty from monarch that big, or did I just get 'lucky' with the maps?

The jump isn't really that large. I think a lot of us who played on first Regent for a while, then on Monarch for a long time had this perception of Emperor somehow being so much harder. It's really not. Emperor is harder, sure, but not all that much so. The same types of things will win you the game, the AI just gets slightly more challenging and you have a few more problems to tackle.

I think you'll probably find Emperor a lot easier than you lead yourself to believe it would be. That's basically what happened with me, at any rate.

	11-05-2004 12:21									#3
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I expected a difference, but to be outdeveloped by a factor 2 seems a bit rough...

If the AI weren't such a lousy general, I would declare this game lost already

	11-05-2004 19:59									#4
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A poor draw on the start location can make any game harder. Two things make it harder :
1) citizens born content is only 1
2) bonus

AI Bonuses
Def Land Units 2 4
Off Land Units 1 2
Start unit type 2 0 1
Extra free support 4 8
Bonus for each city 1 2
Max gov transition 4 3
Cost factor 9 8
AI to AI trade 140 150

	11-05-2004 20:48									#5
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I've recently 'graduated' to Emp, and I can understand your frustration.

The 2 greatest difficulties for me were the unhappy citizens and the AI's tech pace.

Regarding the unhappy citizens, the best advise I can give is to make full use of your MP and your lux slider. As for tech, the key issue is contacts. You want to make sure you're on full contact ASAP, and check your diplomacy screen regularly to make sure you're in on the tech trades. Once you're out of the loop, it's often a downward spiral from which it is difficult to recover. One 'typical' strategy apart from the general ideas above on contacts and happiness is to make the writing-philo beeline immediately (quite possible even with alphabet as a starting tech on emp) and gun for the GL or Lighthouse (depends on map, whether or not you have seafaring).

	11-05-2004 21:11									#6
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i recently made the move as well. i found that one of the problems was my perception of how i was doing.
in monarch i could out rex and out build and out reaserch the AI. in emporer i find that you have make sacrfices. reaserch was the first one to go. especially since ur at the disadvantage of small empire. i find that you need to establish clear strategic goals and work towards them.

in your current game i would take a hard look and decide if military expansion is the way t ogo (imo it is). if so then concentrate on building an effective invasion force of atleast 10 units and pick ur target.

try invcolve as many AI in your war as posible, if they fighting ur enemy they wont challange you. but beware if ur in the middle then be prepared for masses of troops crossing ur lands. tis nearve wrecking but neccessary evil.

my 2cents

	11-05-2004 23:45									#7
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I think the jump to Emperor is pretty large, so I disagree with Arnelos on this one.

The reason I think it feels much harder is the combination of that extra 10% boost the AIs get, the extra free units they get, AND the drop in your own civ's happiness (1 born content). That last one is usually the one I notice most when I play an Emperor game.

-Arrian

p.s. Err, yeah, what vmxa1 said.

	12-05-2004 00:07									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I think the jump to Emperor is pretty large, so I disagree with Arnelos on this one. The reason I think it feels much harder is the combination of that extra 10% boost the AIs get, the extra free units they get, AND the drop in your own civ's happiness (1 born content). That last one is usually the one I notice most when I play an Emperor game. -Arrian p.s. Err, yeah, what vmxa1 said.

Well, I think what happened with me is that I imagined Emperor to be SO MUCH HARDER than what I was used to that when I actually played at emperor, I found it easier than my inflated expectations.

It's harder, to be sure, but not so much harder compared to what I expected.

	12-05-2004 00:10									#9
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What you need to do is play a game on monarch, then play the same map on Emp, then Demigod, then diety. You only need to play the start to see the hole you landed in.

	12-05-2004 01:22									#10
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I probably got myself a very bad start here. Apart form a truly rotten terrain (mucho jungles....) the 3 AIs started close to each other in relatively open terrain. I guess they made contact even before I built my first unit..

On the plus side, I am to the north and only need to focus on ONE front...I am at the end of my first war now. Stupid mayans tried to blackmail me, after loosing many units the price for peace has gone down from them wanting a city from me to them offering me a tech. As the iroquis were unwilling to let my troops pass their land, I had no change to take mayan cities...I'll get to them later, just have to win a war against the iroquise first

	12-05-2004 02:05									#11
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Just keep restarting until you get a sweet start location.

	12-05-2004 02:07									#12
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yeah, a 4 turn pump is nice Post a couple, make a new thread in the start forum, people will help you.

	12-05-2004 02:12									#13
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I dunno, I will try the military solution before I quit/restart. Even if it was a genuine crappy start. If I make it I will be even prouder

Best I could hope for is a 10-turn pump Much better to take AI cities

	12-05-2004 03:13									#14
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Best I could hope for is a 10-turn pump Much better to take AI cities

I had to chuckle at the 10 turn pump. I think after about 6 turns, it is no longer a pump.

I hope you can swing bongo, it will be very satisfying.

	12-05-2004 11:40									#15
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Came to think of it, I got A BANANA wohoo, that's a 8-turn pump? (I am never able to make those calculations without consulting the civilopedia)

	12-05-2004 17:10									#16
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I recall that in PTW the jump from Monarch to Emperor was pretty huge. But for some reason it seems to me that in C3C it's the Emperor/Demigod jump that's the big one. I'm not sure whether they've changed the bonuses at the various levels since I never really looked at the editor until C3C, but perhaps adding the extra 2 difficulty levels at the top end has something to do with my perception of this phenomenon.

	12-05-2004 19:12									#17
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quote: Came to think of it, I got A BANANA wohoo, that's a 8-turn pump?

Well, once you clear the jungle, that banana will give you 3 food under despotism (4 under other governments), I think. If you can irrigate it, it should provide 4.

+4fpt with granary = 3 turn growth, so settlers every 6 turns. If you can manage to average more than 8 shields/turn over that span you can go settler/spear/settler/spear.

-Arrian

	12-05-2004 19:18									#18
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A 6-turn pump ain't that bad, all the land is settled now anyway

I believe the nearest source of water was some 5-7 tiles away, of which 2 were jungle and 2 were forest...

I'll post a 4000bc save if anyone is interested

(come to think of it, the only real error I made was to pop a hut with my first warrior. Instant death I'm not sure if it mattered much though)

	12-05-2004 19:31									#19
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Jungle starts

	12-05-2004 22:33									#20
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In truth, I love jungle starts. Then again, that may just be from getting them so often in the various Apolyton DG's.

	13-05-2004 00:16									#21
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Jungle starts aren't bad if you have one or more fully-capable pump cities (+5fpt, for 4-turn settlers and 2-turn workers). Then they're actually fine, because once you clear that jungle it's a beautiful stretch of grassland.

But what Bongo is describing is much more painful - no bonus food sources until you chop some jungle. Hmm, it does bring the ISDG to mind, doesn't it, Arnelos?

-Arrian

	13-05-2004 00:21									#22
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Bongo, if a save is that hard, you are incredably masochistic to continue playing. Get a new start, one that at least gives you +2 food/turn

Last edited by Krill on 13-05-2004 at 00:34

	13-05-2004 00:43									#23
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The game is crawling along into the ADs...as assumed a well planned military campaign will break any AIs back

I have the #1 power on my continent to the point where he will give me ALL his techs(OK, mostly tier1 and 2 ancient techs, but I am way behind, it is 5 of them ) I have taken a iron source, got myself a sword army, life is sweet. All I got to do is to decide when to stop Maybe his wonder city

I do not claim to be very masochistic, it's just that emperor is long overdue If I nail this one(think I will, at least i will be #1 at my own continent)

	13-05-2004 06:52									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Jungle starts aren't bad if you have one or more fully-capable pump cities (+5fpt, for 4-turn settlers and 2-turn workers). Then they're actually fine, because once you clear that jungle it's a beautiful stretch of grassland. But what Bongo is describing is much more painful - no bonus food sources until you chop some jungle. Hmm, it does bring the ISDG to mind, doesn't it, Arnelos

Minus one game tile, yes it does.... yes it does.

	13-05-2004 11:41									#25
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I guess the trick is to stay out of trouble long enough to build a decent empire, then find a suitable victim


I also noted that the price the AI wants for a tech is higher then my research cost. Is this normal, or a product of the higher difficulty?

	14-05-2004 18:37									#26
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The difference between emperor and demi:

At emperor you build all wonders.
At demi you don't even start them.

I found emperor too easy for my liking so I switched to demi. This is after the terrible experience of Sid.

Vmxa1, can you summarise demi stats?

	14-05-2004 22:48									#27
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AI Bonuses
Def Land Units---------0 0 0 2 4 6 8 12
Off Land Units----------0 0 0 1 2 3 4 6
Start unit type 1-------0 0 0 0 0 1 1 2
Start unit type 2-------0 0 0 0 1 2 2 4
Extra free support-----0 0 0 4 8 12 16 24
Bonus for each city----0 0 0 1 2 3 4 8
Max gov transition-----0 0 0 4 3 2 2 1
Cost factor--------------20 12 10 9 8 7 6 4
AI to AI trade----------110 120 130 140 150 160 170 200

Other variables
Citizens born content----4 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Citizens quelled-----------1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Attack bonus vs barbs---800 400 200 100 50 25 0 0
Percent optimal cities---100 95 90 85 80 70 60 50

	14-05-2004 22:58									#28
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I would say you may have a slight exaggeration on the get all and start none for wonders. It only seems that way. There are just too many ancient wonders to get them all even on Monarch. In a game for someone here I built all but two on Monarch.

You should get 2 or 3 on Demi, you can do between 1 and 3 on Sid. But it does seem like you can't get any. I would agree that you could do worse, if things went badly. You have no coast near you, no ivory and poor start for food and shields.

In the main you can build the Gl at least, unless you get a bad break and one civ gets an SGL to rush it out from under you.
That window should be very small if you have a decently timed prebuild (say within 4 turns).

	14-05-2004 23:35									#29
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Hmmm, my average prebuild is from 10 to 13 turns. I never share literature, they never research it. And yes, I can get a couple of wonders more (I particularly like Mike's and Bach's and I also like Sun Tzu's and Leo's but I can count on only two of those in the best scenario). Of course I was exaggerating but that's how one feels the transition. After unsuccessful tries at Sid, emperor really seemed child play to me. And demi very much resembled the old deity.

	15-05-2004 00:15									#30
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Did some of the higher difficulties get some adjustment?


I went all out military on this game. I played until 570ad last night and finally entered the middle age. Still in despotism After taking the northern half of the iroquis empire I made peace, and got 6 techs(+150g+47gpt) in return, all I needed to enter a new age. Even with the aztecs owning SoZ, taking the rest of the continent is piece of cake now. Got two sword armies, all iron sources, and feudalism as my bonus tech I will continue playing until I meet the other civs. I suspect the wars has hampered my continent(which is a small continent btw) so much that the rest of the world may be half an age ahead of us. Time will tell, this is my first game in a long while that hasn't been settled in the ancient age