12-05-2004 06:40									#31
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd We need less, not more.

Just because you can not get any doesn't mean you should rain on the party of others.

	12-05-2004 06:44									#32
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quote: Damage to the environment, pollution.

That is an industry problem, not a population problem. Corolating the two will get you caught in a conundrum.

quote: And despite that it still isn't enough. We're just amazingly efficient like that.

Once again, an industry problem as well as distribution problem.

quote: And? so we need more workers to work in the more factories that we need for the more products for the more people. Pointless exponential growth.

Not everyone who is born is an Einstein... Chance man, chance.

As for Suzuki, I have seen signs that population growth is declining, but I am to lazy to go find them right now... However, I blame the gays!!!


Ludd, the problem is not population growth, the problem is the lack of human compassion to address the issue where the problem exists...aka, greed.


[sarcasm]My job just went to India!!!![/sarcasm]

good.

	12-05-2004 06:51									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Japher That is an industry problem, not a population problem. Ludd, the problem is not population growth, the problem is the lack of human compassion to address the issue where the problem exists...aka, greed.

I agree in part... and that's kind of my point, actually. If we want to maintain the level of luxury we have in the west, we need less people. If we want more people, we have to live like hippies.

Afterall, it would take five planet earths for just the current population of earth to all 'live like americans', as they say.

	12-05-2004 07:15									#34
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I saw what you wrote, Japher.
Just wanted you to know. I saw.

	12-05-2004 07:18									#35
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Isn't something like only the eastern 1/20 suitable for "Aussies" ?
The rest is suitable for dingos and , uuuuh, bush people only ?

	12-05-2004 07:24									#36
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Damage to the environment, pollution. And despite that it still isn't enough. We're just amazingly efficient like that.

We pay people not to grow food.

quote: And? so we need more workers to work in the more factories that we need for the more products for the more people. Pointless exponential growth.

So our standard of living goes up.

quote: I'm reminded of David Suzuki: "Now, let me give you an example of an exponentially growing system to show you why it is ludicrous to think that we can continue to have steady exponential growth. I am going to give you a test tube full of food for bacteria. I am going to introduce one bacterial cell into this test tube and that cell is going to go through exponential growth. It is going to double every minute. So, at the beginning there is one cell. In one minute there are two, at two minutes there are four, and at three minutes there are eight and so on. That's exponential growth. At 60 minutes the test tube is completely full of bacteria and there is no food left. The question is: when is the test tube half empty? The answer is, of course, 59 minutes. At 59 minutes you still have half a test tube of food but you are going to be one minute away from filling it with bacteria. So at 58 minutes, the test tube is 25 per cent full of bacteria, at 57 minutes, 12.5 per cent. At 55 minutes it is only about three per cent full of bacteria. If at 55 minutes one of the bacteria said: "Hey guys, I think we have a population problem, I think we're running out of food and space," any sensible bacteria would say: "What the hell are you talking about? 97 per cent of the test tube is food and we have been here 55 minutes." And they would be five minutes away from filling it. Now let's suppose bacteria are not much different from us; that at 59 minutes, a few of them finally smarten up and say: "I think we've got a problem, we better put every bit of resource into our genetic engineers and all our high tech guys and they have got to get us out of trouble." You know what they do? These hot shot scientists come up in 30 seconds with three new test tubes full of food and nobody in it. So they have now quadrupled the amount of space and food. What have they got? At 60 minutes the first test tube is full of bacteria, 61 minutes the second is full and at 62 minutes all four are full. Quadruple the space but keep exponential growth you buy two extra minutes. Now I can tell you that no amount of science and technology is going to quadruple our space and resources and that we are long past 55 minutes. We have to be thinking not of continued growth, or sustainable growth, or even zero growth, we have to talk about negative growth. "

First things first, human growth is not exponential(right now most countries aren't even growing except for immigration and that can't last forever).

and Second, we've been working on the problems of food production and space from second zero, not 55 minutes, 3rd we have a long way to go before we even get close to using up the earth. Further still until we use up the resources of the solar system, and so on and so forth.

	12-05-2004 07:28									#37
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I agree in part... and that's kind of my point, actually. If we want to maintain the level of luxury we have in the west, we need less people. If we want more people, we have to live like hippies. Afterall, it would take five planet earths for just the current population of earth to all 'live like americans', as they say.

I don't know where that saying came from, but China has surpassed the American Economy's use of raw metals like Iron and Copper.

	12-05-2004 07:32									#38
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It's amusing to see nerds on the internet whining about people having sex and the conspicuous consumption in the West while posting from a computer in a climate controled house.

	12-05-2004 07:35									#39
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Dino, his premise is that we should limit growth so that we can continue to have our high standard of living.

	12-05-2004 07:36									#40
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It has been advocated before by the way, in Great Britain in the past, it was wrong then, its wrong now, once we have got the universe filled with people it might be time to start worrying

	12-05-2004 07:36									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich The government should stay out of the bedroom

In this case they went no further than the tax report.

	12-05-2004 07:37									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Japher and then there's Texas... the keep breeding despite everyones protest.

	12-05-2004 07:39									#43
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I imagine AH's wife has locked herself in the bathroom.

Mrs Horse and I have already over achieved for our country and we're too damn tired anyway.

We're considering patriotically giving one away to a childless couple.

	12-05-2004 07:43									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's amusing to see nerds on the internet whining about people having sex and the conspicuous consumption in the West while posting from a computer in a climate controled house.

It's amusing to see someone who makes 0 effort criticizing those who do make an effort for not being able to pull the whole load.

quote: First things first, human growth is not exponential

It certainly is. How long has the human population been 6 billion?

quote: we have a long way to go before we even get close to using up the earth.

Like he says, at 59 minutes the test tube's still half full of food.

quote: I don't know where that saying came from, but China has surpassed the American Economy's use of raw metals like Iron and Copper.

And also population. And don't pretend that the USA never went through an industrial revolution and just sprung immediately into modern era technology.

Or that half the crap china makes goes to the west for that matter.

	12-05-2004 07:45									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha once we have got the universe filled with people it might be time to start worrying

And keep the science fiction out of this. Doing what we please and expecting future generations to have the answer to every problem is beyond foolish.

	12-05-2004 07:46									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha Dino, his premise is that we should limit growth so that we can continue to have our high standard of living.

Samething.

	12-05-2004 07:59									#47
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quote: I saw what you wrote, Japher. Just wanted you to know. I saw.

What?! See, see!!! Security breach, someone hacked into my account!

	12-05-2004 08:56									#48
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Hell, apparently he can't look at her w/o her getting knocked up. Didn't she just have another kid within the past year or so?

He's just doing his patriotic duty.

	12-05-2004 09:01									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin This has a recurring theme to it, the Australian government has been worried about underpopulation for a long time. It also has pseudo-racist undertones - we don't want immigrants to increase the population, we want Aussies.

Hmmm, no I don't think that's right - we have a non discriminatory immigration policy and the immigration intake is at near record levels at up to 116,000 per year plus a further 12,000 humanitarian places, giving a total intake of around 128,000. Next year the humaniatarian intake will go up to 13,000 and the total intake will be nudging 130,000 or more.

The government has said that ageing population and workforce shortages will only be solved by increased immigration - a baby born today will not enter the workforce for at least 15 years, and probably more like 20, whereas an adult immigrant arriving today can start work as soon as they find a job.

	12-05-2004 09:17									#50
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd It's amusing to see someone who makes 0 effort criticizing those who do make an effort for not being able to pull the whole load. It certainly is. How long has the human population been 6 billion? Like he says, at 59 minutes the test tube's still half full of food. And also population. And don't pretend that the USA never went through an industrial revolution and just sprung immediately into modern era technology. Or that half the crap china makes goes to the west for that matter.

As I said, growth rates across the developed world are already below replacement, and the world in general is expected to go below replacement rate in about 50 years. In order to get exponential growth all women have to be pregnant all the time pretty much.

its actually closer to 75-80% destined for export from China, but our economy is over 8 times larger then theirs, shouldn't our own market require so many more natural resources?

	12-05-2004 09:40									#51
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This will be great though. More low-income scum having babies so they can get money for alcohol and cigarettes (and perhaps bread if they have enough money left over) while their brats run around making noise and seeing just how much they can steal while people aren't looking. Hooray.

	12-05-2004 09:47									#52
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd 6 billion is more than enough. What the hell would we want anymore for? It's not like it'll acomplish anything but overcrowding, resources depletion, famine and conflict.

Is your last name Malthus?

	12-05-2004 10:17									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha First off, right now Humans inhabit very little of the earth's surface. Second, we have a planet,a solar system, a galaxy, and finally a universe full of resources, third, with that many more customers, all of our agriculture wouldn't need props, subsidies, and tariffs to survive. Finally, the silicoids are expanding like mad(they started next to us and we aren't uni/tol so we are pretty much ****ed), and if we don't expand even faster, the Earth will be theirs. The Malthus curve does not apply to Humans.

I somewhat agree with your basic point..
I wouldnt say that Malthus doesnt apply.
That would mean all needed resources are in unlimited supply at all time, which is definetly not true.
The human population has not always had exponential growth, and does not at the moment, though that may change...

	12-05-2004 10:22									#54
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As many people pointed out, the rate of population increase worldwide is decreasing very rapidly, and using different estimates, the population should stop increasing at around 10-20 billions and start decreasing from there...
Major changes (Nuclear War, colonization of space etc..) could change this both ways, but without a major thing, this is the way were going....
Although I agree that there are a lot of humans, and that we are a problem, in the short to medium term, the solution to pollution and such are more about sensibilization, laws to promote clean industry etc. etc than actualy population reduction....

	12-05-2004 11:18									#55
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quote: This has a recurring theme to it, the Australian government has been worried about underpopulation for a long time. It also has pseudo-racist undertones - we don't want immigrants to increase the population, we want Aussies.

Awesome!

I'm white. Does that mean I can **** my way on to this government gravy train?

	12-05-2004 11:41									#56
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quote: Originally posted by LulThyme As many people pointed out, the rate of population increase worldwide is decreasing very rapidly, and using different estimates, the population should stop increasing at around 10-20 billions and start decreasing from there...

Is that so? Countries in Africa have birth rates of something like eight per woman. Eight.

All the countries you get news about have falling birth rates, and yet somehow the population keeps going up.

I'm rooting for AIDS. Or, failing that, a fourth Yersinia pestis pandemic.

	12-05-2004 15:28									#57
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Mr. Pres, Ludd, I implore you both to go to the UN Population Division's homepage before you make further fools of yourselves.

For starters, there is only 1 African country that has a birthrate of 8.00 and that is Niger. Most of them have birthrates ~6.0 - 7.0... and those numbers are quickly falling.

Note the VERY strong correlation between birthrate, infant mortality, and life expectency - if you want birthrates to fall then don't "root" for AIDS, idiot. The aforementioned Niger has a current life expectance of 46.2 years, with over twelve percent of all infants dying before the age of 2. At least they're not Liberia, where fifteen percent of all infants die.

The worlds population is expected to top out at ~9,000,000,000 in 2050, with global birthrates dropping to mere replacement levels of 2.02 children per woman. By 2050, global population growth will decline from todays 1.35%/year to 0.33%/year. Yes, that is 1/3rd of 1 percent.

Look before you leap, kids. This information is readily available to anybody who can type "UN Population Division" in Google... do so before you come here and make complete, monsterous asses of yourselves.

Last edited by JohnT on 12-05-2004 at 15:33

	12-05-2004 15:28									#58
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Oh, I forgot: Cite. It's a PDF document so you might just want to download it.

	12-05-2004 15:36									#59
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Now, as for the country in question, Australia will have continued population growth, but it will all come through immigration, not natural (i.e., internal) growth. Even today they're below replacement levels, a situation that is not projected to improve much as they stay pretty stable from today's 1.70 children per woman to 2050's projected 1.85 children per woman.

	12-05-2004 15:36									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Japher That is an industry problem, not a population problem.

Not entirely. People themselves also do a lot of damage to the environment, if just for the fact the more people use up more resources, and you need to get resources from somewhere. Then you have things like slash-and-burn agriculture practices in various places such as Brazil, health problems caused by people living in certain areas, and so forth.