12-05-2004 15:40									#61
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT The worlds population is expected to top out at ~9,000,000,000 in 2050, with global birthrates dropping to mere replacement levels of 2.02 children per woman.

9 billion people far exceeds the carrying capacity of the earth.

quote: Originally posted by JohnT do so before you come here and make complete, monsterous asses of yourselves.

What would that be, John? Do you prefer a lot of poor kids born having terrible lives, even more evironmental degradation, that sort of thing?

	12-05-2004 15:42									#62
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Given that the moral choice you are presenting me with is:

1. Children being born in poverty.

or.

2. Rooting for their deaths.

Yeah, I guess I would prefer them to be born in poverty.

	12-05-2004 15:54									#63
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT The worlds population is expected to top out at ~9,000,000,000 in 2050, with global birthrates dropping to mere replacement levels of 2.02 children per woman. By 2050, global population growth will decline from todays 1.35%/year to 0.33%/year.

So, the stastics that our population rate with curve and level out are dependant on people heeding my advice and practicing population control. Perhaps not to the level that I think is best - but certainly not what australia is encouraging.

I think it's naive to believe that people will just stop having children as more people are born, however... what is the decline attributed to? (anything other than wishful thinking?) Hell, the fact that people are saying "hey, look... the growth rates leveling off... it's not going to hurt if we promote large families for a bit" is evidence to that.

	12-05-2004 15:57									#64
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If you want insight into the UN's methodology for population projections I, again, implore you to go to the UN Population Division's website.

	12-05-2004 15:58									#65
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Given that the moral choice you are presenting me with is: 1. Children being born in poverty. or. 2. Rooting for their deaths. Yeah, I guess I would prefer them to be born in poverty.

Strawman.

	12-05-2004 15:59									#66
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No, given the "thread" of this thread so far, it's the choice you presented me with. Read the above for further clarification, UR.

	12-05-2004 16:11									#67
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT If you want insight into the UN's methodology for population projections I, again, implore you to go to the UN Population Division's website.

Just going to shrug off my argument, then? Ppretend that you didn't just cite something that is based on an assumption of declining growth rates to argue for increased growth rates?


But I'm not going to sift through pages and pages of overblown stastistics to find their methodology. You seem to have alot of faith in their projections though, so surely you can give me a summary?

	12-05-2004 16:13									#68
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If by saying "you can find out for yourself" is "blowing off your questions", then I don't know how to help you. You're the one with the questions, you find out. I gave you the link: use it!

Being informed is a lot better than blowing smoke out of your ass (as you have been doing this entire thread).

	12-05-2004 16:27									#69
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I follow your point about when a new born baby enters the workforce as compared to an immigrant, Horse. But there ius still something inconsistent about controlling immigration vigorously and encouraging more children.

As for the striking test tube illustration, if you measure the growth of a baby elephant for a year or two and then draw a graph to project his expansion you can readily convince yourself that it won't be long before the world and everything in it has been absorbed into his ever growing bulk.

Malthus proposition, I think, was that nature stepped in to cucb population growth by way of disease and war and such like.

In fact it seems that increased prosperity brings birth control in its wake and has the effect of cutting population without the need for anything further. And people around the world have been getting steadily more prosperous for some time.

Two of my grandparents came from falilies of more than ten children. I know of none anywhere near that size in the subsequent generations and it is becoming rare in the UK to find a family with as many as four children. One or two is the norm.

India and China both are both becoming steadiy more prosperous. As population growth slows there world demographics will start to look very different.

	12-05-2004 16:34									#70
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT [quote]Being informed is a lot better than blowing smoke out of your ass (as you have been doing this entire thread).

I'm not the one who's having difficulty backing up my arguments.

It's your cite, if you can't give me a summary, you probably never should of cited it.


Either way, I'm not particularily interested in 50 year projections (let alone the 300 year projections they have), since there is such a huge margin of error. It's just something for their statistic jokeys to do to keep from being bored.

	12-05-2004 16:40									#71
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So...

You know nothing about the subject, but are content to spew misinformation?

You know you know nothing about the subject, but are content to doubt those (The UN) who do?

You are pointed towards the some of the worlds leading experts on population growth and statistical methodology relating to said pop. growth, information that is free and open to all, yet you want me to explain their numbers?

Get real, Ludd. I'm not here to do your "homework." The only thing that matters to me is the fact that you desire to remain ignorant on the matter, which now allows me to drastically discount the value of everything you have to say about this (and many other relating) subjects.

	12-05-2004 16:43									#72
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I'm not the one who's having difficulty backing up my arguments.

Dude, I backed up my arguments with a cite to the worlds leading institute on population growth. Don't even try to play this game with me, child.

	12-05-2004 16:52									#73
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT yet you want me to explain their numbers?

Well, you are the one using it to argue for increased growth rates.

I really only wanted you to explain their numbers because I knew that the reasons behind the population curve could only be through birth control, or massive deaths. Which is what I'm arguing.

I enjoy having people make my arguments for me, what can I say.

quote: I follow your point about when a new born baby enters the workforce as compared to an immigrant, Horse. But there ius still something inconsistent about controlling immigration vigorously and encouraging more children. As for the striking test tube illustration, if you measure the growth of a baby elephant for a year or two and then draw a graph to project his expansion you can readily convince yourself that it won't be long before the world and everything in it has been absorbed into his ever growing bulk. Malthus proposition, I think, was that nature stepped in to cucb population growth by way of disease and war and such like. In fact it seems that increased prosperity brings birth control in its wake and has the effect of cutting population without the need for anything further. And people around the world have been getting steadily more prosperous for some time. Two of my grandparents came from falilies of more than ten children. I know of none anywhere near that size in the subsequent generations and it is becoming rare in the UK to find a family with as many as four children. One or two is the norm. India and China both are both becoming steadiy more prosperous. As population growth slows there world demographics will start to look very different.

But can the world sustain even 6 billion prosperous people? Let alone 9 billion, or 12 billion, or whatever it's going to 'cap out' at.

But regardless.. if australia's reaction of "hey, we should be having more babies!" to the slow-down in growth rates is indicative, it might not matter.

	12-05-2004 16:54									#74
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Dude, I backed up my arguments with a cite to the worlds leading institute on population growth. Don't even try to play this game with me, child.

Yes, a cite that that was based on the assumption that what I am arguing for will be the case.

And you should drop the arrogance, gramps. It makes you look bad.

	12-05-2004 17:10									#75
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Perhaps some people here should take one for the team and do their part in decreasing the world's population

	12-05-2004 17:16									#76
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Isn't Australia something like 90% desert? What is the size of the non-desert portion of Australia? Isn't the habitable part of Australia something like approximately the size of New England?

	12-05-2004 17:25									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Isn't Australia something like 90% desert? What is the size of the non-desert portion of Australia? Isn't the habitable part of Australia something like approximately the size of New England?

A quick search of the Australian government websits says their arable land is 461,211 km², which is about 10 times more than Japan and 1/4 of the US'.

	12-05-2004 17:38									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Perhaps some people here should take one for the team and do their part in decreasing the world's population

They're too big of a coward. I've already asked them before.

	12-05-2004 17:55									#79
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It's easier to whine than do, DD.

	12-05-2004 20:54									#80
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This is a perfect timing to take over the world with my army of semi-clones (children)

	12-05-2004 20:57									#81
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quote: Not entirely. People themselves also do a lot of damage to the environment, if just for the fact the more people use up more resources, and you need to get resources from somewhere. Then you have things like slash-and-burn agriculture practices in various places such as Brazil, health problems caused by people living in certain areas, and so forth.

It's the not entirely that gets you trapped. Since we know that slash and burn type treatment of the environment is not entirely "needed" it would then again fall on the part of industry and not population.

	12-05-2004 22:01									#82
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Just going to shrug off my argument, then? Ppretend that you didn't just cite something that is based on an assumption of declining growth rates to argue for increased growth rates? But I'm not going to sift through pages and pages of overblown stastistics to find their methodology. You seem to have alot of faith in their projections though, so surely you can give me a summary?

Ok, back during the time of the revolution in the US the birth rate was about 8-10 children per women, now we are down to about 2.07, what happened?

	12-05-2004 22:35									#83
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You're going too fast for him Whoha .

It's funny how Ludd is a total dunce on basic economics. As the value of a woman's time goes up, the less children she will have as that will take away from her working (and if her value is higher, then that time being taken away will be harder to bear).

	12-05-2004 22:42									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha what happened?

People did what I'm suggesting and stopped having so many kids.

	12-05-2004 22:45									#85
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quote: 9 billion people far exceeds the carrying capacity of the earth.

In terms of what? Food production? The solution is simply to produce more - if Russia and the Ukraine produced as much grain as they could, they'd outproduce the US (assuming they had equal technology).

In any case, Australia has food surpluses. If they want to expand their population at the cost of reducing grain exports, fine by me. I live in a free country - you know, the type of country that doesn't rely on grain imports.

	12-05-2004 23:52									#86
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Damage to the environment, pollution.

I repeat my question, what damage?

quote: And despite that it still isn't enough. We're just amazingly efficient like that.

There's PLENTY. Distribution is the problem.

	12-05-2004 23:52									#87
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Yay! I'm the first person that gets to shout out that this is discriminatory against those that cannot/will not produce offspring (ie, my team. You know how we hate being left out of the fun).

A fairier way would be to assign every adult citizen a quota of 1.5 children linked to the payment for having the kids. That way, couples can have their three kids with government payments while those that don't want to have children can sell their quotas to people that want more government-funded kiddies.

So completes my now pointless two cents.

	12-05-2004 23:59									#88
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Everyone knows there are no homosexuals in Australia. That whole thing about Sydney being second only to San Fran in the gay population stakes is a slur against red blooded Australian heteros.

	13-05-2004 00:01									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Yay! I'm the first person that gets to shout out that this is discriminatory against those that cannot/will not produce offspring (ie, my team. You know how we hate being left out of the fun). A fairier way would be to assign every adult citizen a quota of 1.5 children linked to the payment for having the kids. That way, couples can have their three kids with government payments while those that don't want to have children can sell their quotas to people that want more government-funded kiddies. So completes my now pointless two cents.

are you sterile? Gay people have been known to have been married with children.

	13-05-2004 00:02									#90
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And those that do are often not living the life that they want.