12-05-2004 10:35									#1
	City 3 Discussion Thread Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

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	12-05-2004 10:38									#2
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In less than a week we should have our next settler out and ready to set up another city. Please discuss both locations and proposed names for our next city. We'll put up a poll listing the city sites (and names) that are proposed.

--Togas

	12-05-2004 10:44									#3
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I like the following sites:



However, I like them in the following order:

1) Red, 2) Blue, 3) Green.

--Togas

	12-05-2004 10:46									#4
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Blue. We need more production before we worry about resources.

	12-05-2004 11:03									#5
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i second togas' ordering.

	12-05-2004 11:41									#6
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Why the rush for the ivory? It will be useful for happiness, yes, but we can hardly start on Zeus with only 2 productive cities, much less come close to finishing it. The ivory can wait.

	12-05-2004 12:38									#7
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Kloreep is right. We need more production first. Does that Tobacco tile have a little shield on it?

The blue city can make use of the two bonus grasslands to its immediate E and N, while we irrigate more plains tiles for Apolyton to work on. It can also use those big brown things that go 'Moooo!'.

After this city, we may even consider building to our north (say - NE-NE-N of Apolyton) to establish a Ring of Cities.

PAL is too far and CDG is too weak to be a threat to our Ivory claim.


edit: the Blue City may also produce a boat to scout with. It would be great to discover the other two civs first...

	12-05-2004 14:54									#8
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BFM's point about the Curragh is well made...

Also, we have fertile ground where we are, with 4 shielded grass, a cow, a wheat and a baccy, before any forest clearing. We have reserved SoZ with PAL, so no fear of losing Ivory there. Let's get a good set of close-knit cities to start with, and THEN expand that much further. Blue is my choice.

	12-05-2004 17:54									#9
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In my city placement proposal, the next city to be built should be the blue one directly on the tobacco (followed by the Ivory site)


Lets starts somking!

	12-05-2004 18:32									#10
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Now THAT I can live with! No waste of the shielded grass, even though it is a slightly less excellent site overall.

	12-05-2004 18:40									#11
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I second Don on this, go for production.

Im not yet convinced about whether we should or should not build Zeus, PAL had a good arguement against but Ill take that with a grain of salt.

PAL does want to consider starting the attack in 50 turns. That means we need production, then we need horsies, then we need iron.

If we can work in Zeus with that fine.

Just remember the more we delay the CDG attack the stronger they become. Thats the way PAL is looking at this.

We can probably delay past 50 turns, but much more than that and PAL will begin wondering what we are doing.

So we need to REX REX REX REX REX like mad and build CAMPS CAMPS CAMPS CAMPS.

	12-05-2004 18:46									#12
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Now THAT I can live with! No waste of the shielded grass, even though it is a slightly less excellent site overall.

Which shielded grass tile is wasted?

	12-05-2004 20:16									#13
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I have to agree with BFM here. What shielded grass would be wasted?

In all actualality, moving the blue site to where Togas indicated would net a more productive city, but it would effect the city placements and production of all the other cities (one of which is a 10+ spt city).

	12-05-2004 22:25									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal In all actualality, moving the blue site to where Togas indicated would net a more productive city, but it would effect the city placements and production of all the other cities (one of which is a 10+ spt city).

And take one more turn to build. Not that it makes that much of a difference. BUT we need to get this REX in gear.

And if it gets to the point of the late middle ages and we have aqueducts all over and getting the WF actually working tiles is an issue, then we just disband a camp or two.

Build close, maximize a 6 tile utilization, and lets win this one.

	13-05-2004 00:02									#15
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We may want to revist some of our old discussions in This thread on Our Second City

However, please view my post regarding the benefits of my blue city as opposed to Donegeal's. They may be 1 tile apart, but my blue city has a much larger production capacity and wouldn't be required to steal good tiles from Apolyton and Hypnos.

And it WOULD NOT take an extra turn to establish it. Both cities can be founded 3 turns after the settler is built.

--Togas

	13-05-2004 02:42									#16
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Now we're more on target. Forget that ivory.

One point I think we should keep in mind while discussing future size 7+ mechanics: Apolyton is not a very optimal spot for a capitol. It's close to the sea in the south and close to a desert in the west. I think we may want to look at abandoning it and palace-jumping to a location more central to our future productive lands once CDG is gone.

	13-05-2004 03:05									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Togas We may want to revist some of our old discussions in This thread on Our Second City However, please view my post regarding the benefits of my blue city as opposed to Donegeal's. They may be 1 tile apart, but my blue city has a much larger production capacity and wouldn't be required to steal good tiles from Apolyton and Hypnos. And it WOULD NOT take an extra turn to establish it. Both cities can be founded 3 turns after the settler is built. --Togas

Togas it is one tile farther than Don's, not that that is a big deal.

Really the meat of this debate is how your site would affect the rest of the close in sites.

And whether its good to have a few high sheild cities or more medium sheild cities.

But I guess thats what we are talking about

	13-05-2004 03:43									#18
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Kloreep is on the right track.

We will be at war in 50 turns.
We need productive camps.

Worry about spacing and palace positioning later.
It may not even be needed if GWT rolls over BAT before we even meet them.

	13-05-2004 03:49									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Kloreep is on the right track. We will be at war in 50 turns. We need productive camps. Worry about spacing and palace positioning later. It may not even be needed if GWT rolls over BAT before we even meet them.

I agree mate.

We need to REX and get our production up asap.

Since the capitol is now basically a worker/settler pump if we disband later its no big deal. and we can worry about it later.

I want a solid core of cities, where each city can effectively work six tiles. If we need to, disband a few later, if we even get to that point.

	13-05-2004 03:56									#20
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So if we're moving the capital, shouldn't we be planning our cities around the future palace site?

	13-05-2004 05:06									#21
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When it comes to P/FP placement, we must remember that the FP doesn't work like it used to. No more second core.

	13-05-2004 06:30									#22
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Yep, which is why I think it'll be all the more important to jump the palace away from the ocean and desert. Where it currently is, our eventual desert cities will eat up good ranks.

	13-05-2004 07:07									#23
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Blue. We need to develop a highly productive core. I'd be fine if someone else were foolish enough to lunge for the ivory. The civ that does so will simply be left with a crappy and corrupt city that's no good to them and requires more resources to hook up to their road network.

We need more productive cities.

So yes, BLUE

	13-05-2004 07:11									#24
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Ah.. Arne... Which blue? The tobacco or one tile over?

	13-05-2004 07:15									#25
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Blue.

I would vote for the red, but it really isn't red is it? It's more like.. fucsia. (And I agree with the 'ivory can wait' sentiment.)

Now the question is whether it is Togas' Blue, Or Don's 'somking' Blue?

	13-05-2004 07:20									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Ah.. Arne... Which blue? The tobacco or one tile over?

Ditto

Which blue do you want?

From Donegeal's plan or Togas's plan?

Same goes for you Beta.

What we really ought to do it vote on "plans" and after we agree to a "plan" then discuss which order to build cities in.

Im officially endorseing Donegeal's Blue city

	13-05-2004 07:54									#27
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Togas' plan. It gives us the shielded grassland along with still having both the cattle tile and the forest tile within reach (for shields, mostly).

	13-05-2004 08:14									#28
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Togas Blue for me

	13-05-2004 10:05									#29
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Im officially endorseing Donegeal's Blue city

Why would you do something like that?

Build there and the city will work all of 1 good tile, the one that's 9-9 from the city where we're currently building a mine. Apolyton and Hypnos will be using the cattle tile. THERE ARE NO OTHER GOOD TILES WITHIN ITS CITY RADIUS!

Build in my proposed location and the city will have one more bonus shield tile and the tobacco tile to use, and it will also have better growth potential with all that grassland that we can mine.

Once Fred and Barney finish the mine they need only build a road and it's connected. No additional tile to road to link up, like what we'd need for Tobacco City. The city will be linked up to our network faster than Tobacco.

It will be easier to protect being 3 tiles away from Hypnos, our barracks city and the center of our military production. Tobacco City would be 4 tiles.

AND .... it would take only 3 turns to settle:
Turn 1: settler moves 3-3.
Turn 2: Settler moves 2.
Turn 3: BUILD CITY

--Togas

	13-05-2004 17:47									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal What shielded grass would be wasted?

S'funny. I was sure Togas' blue site was on a shielded grass.. Oh well. Togas' is my pick with that misperception cleared up. The extra shielded grass available straight away is the key. If we build on don's we get the trade bonus from Tobacco immediately, but are unlikely to have that extra shielded grass for ages. Which is more valuable when cooperating with two civs on trading techs and when we may have a strict deadline to prepare an army before? Shields, natch.

Togas' blue city. Either site is a camp anyway, and as Togas says, both can be founded within the same timeframe. That extra shielded grass is an extra shield from anytime we want it, and an extra 2 shields as soon as we mine it. That's what we need.