12-05-2004 15:40									#1
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The concept of Hero is fun, but their capacities make them more wizards than Heroes merely inspiring and motivating their co-citizens.

- They shouldn't be able to build the unit army, because that unit is a heresy as discussed in other threads

- they shouldn't be able to rush build anything, because that rush building concept is a heresy as discussed in another thread

I think their capacities should be limited to what is coherent with a hero status:
- a military hero remains the unit it was, but with somewhat increased attack and defense capacity. And if integrated into an army, it contaminates the other units by increasing their attacks and defense by a factor to determine, like 10 or 20% because he's a strategy genius (but not too much, because it must not become a secret weapon that completely unbalances military operations)
- a scientific hero appears as a unit we can fortify in any city we wish and which increases scientific output by a given factor.
- a civil engineer hero becomes a worker unit that can conduct worker's work at 50% more efficiency or that can be fortified in a city to speed up building rate (increase shields by a given factor without increased pollution, when a building or marvel is built, because he is a construction genius)

Being units, the heroes can move as units, change city to bring their talent elsewhere, or change army.

We can also imagine that heroes have a limited lifetime (20 or 30 turns?) before loosing their abilities: the civil engineer or the scientific unit disappears, the military unit comes back to normal capacity for its type.

	12-05-2004 20:55									#2
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no thankyou

	12-05-2004 21:04									#3
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yes, absolutely. I want heroes in civ4. And the heroes should have real historical names, and should have a random chance of appearing either at the historical date or as the result of an event.

For example, if you were losing a war, there could be a certain chance that at the historical date, that your civ's military hero appears. This would give you a bonus to help you turn the war around. Likewise, if you behind in tech, there could be a chance of getting a science hero.

This way, heroes would help players that were falling behind in the game and give them a chance to come back.

Last edited by The diplomat on 12-05-2004 at 21:12

	13-05-2004 10:03									#4
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hi ,


well the idea seems possible and the concept is appealing

have a nice day

	13-05-2004 13:02									#5
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Yes diplomat, I like very much your idea that Heroes be used mostly to help civs falling behind to catch up. Just like Jeanne d'Arc reconquered France from the British when the country was in real bad shape...
In such case, the magical capacity of Heroes seems more acceptable. The worst off you are, the higher the odds of seeing a Hero appear.

	13-05-2004 14:24									#6
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Why not simply integrate the 'heroes' into the advisor interface. So that for instance certain achievements in either domestic (economy), trade, science, culture, military, or foreign affairs will give an overall bonus (or penalty) in one of these.

For instance if you are playing the French and you have built x amount of fortresses the military advisor Vauban appears and allows you to build better fortresses faster.

Or you are playing Germans and are at war with three civs at the same time Albert Speer appears and allows you to upgrade units cheaper.

And so on.

	13-05-2004 19:08									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Why not simply integrate the 'heroes' into the advisor interface. So that for instance certain achievements in either domestic (economy), trade, science, culture, military, or foreign affairs will give an overall bonus (or penalty) in one of these.

Kinda like MOO3?

quote: For instance if you are playing the French and you have built x amount of fortresses the military advisor Vauban appears and allows you to build better fortresses faster.

Wouldn't there be a risk of just making powerful civs even more powerful? The civ that builds x fortresses now gets an extra bonuses making his fortresses better and making it easier to build more. The civ that lacks enough fortress now is even more behind.

quote: Or you are playing Germans and are at war with three civs at the same time Albert Speer appears and allows you to upgrade units cheaper.

This would probably work better, since it gives a bonus as a result of a penalty or a problem.

Since heroes give bonuses, they should only appear as a result of a problem/deficit/penalty. This will help a player that may be in trouble. If heroes appear as a reward for a success/strength/victory then they only make a strong player stronger and this could be unbalancing.

	13-05-2004 23:08									#8
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NO. The point of civ is the grand picture- individual hero's don't really have a place in a civ type grand game. In Moo2 they had super governors-I think even this would not be right for civ, but its the most I think we should go into.

	14-05-2004 00:01									#9
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quote: Originally posted by GePap NO. The point of civ is the grand picture- individual hero's don't really have a place in a civ type grand game. In Moo2 they had super governors-I think even this would not be right for civ, but its the most I think we should go into.

But historically, some leaders have had a huge impact on their empire's development. How is having a great leader inconsistent with the big picture when historically some great leaders have had a huge impact on their empire's growth?

	14-05-2004 00:59									#10
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Wouldn't there be a risk of just making powerful civs even more powerful? The civ that builds x fortresses now gets an extra bonuses making his fortresses better and making it easier to build more. The civ that lacks enough fortress now is even more behind.

That is true. I like the idea of 'heroes' appearing if you are in a tight spot. So maybe this Vauban character should then appear if the enemy or enemies have pilliaged x amount of tiles in your land?

It also ties in with what I think is a general idea, that war concentrates the mind. So naturally if a nation is faced with a specific problem a genius will step forward and suggest a solution.

The problem is that it is going to take a lot of research to find all the different advisors who have changed history, besides the usual suspects.

	26-05-2004 01:21									#11
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i think heroes do have a place in a civ-style game, but only at very specific points. i don't like the 'great leader' aspect of civiii, because it isn't that dynamic. you can't do very much. but i love the idea of an optional 'hero' rule: the first unique unit your civ builds is a 'hero.' (his bonuses are slightly increased over that of the other unique units). the first greek hoplite is achilles, for example. rommel leads the first division of german panzers. so these units are good, but they are still mortal and will eventually become outdated. just like all heroes.