14-05-2004 22:44									#31
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quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis I can't argue with too many of those, other than maybe America. No "crappy" civ list would be complete without Germany, though. Yuck.

I love the industrious trait and where I might otherwise list America as a strong civ, the completely worthless UU seriously depresses the value of the civ when combined with the reduction of its industrious trait.

Under PTW rules, the Americans are a powerhouse MP civ if you're playing on a map with plenty of goody huts (and sometimes even not). The reduction in that industrious trait, however, makes them significantly less effective in that role, especially with the lack of an ancient UU.

	14-05-2004 23:02									#32
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Yeah, you're right. As much as I like their traits, obviously the American UU is useless. They could be a 1st or 2nd tier civ if they had a halfway decent UU.

Hmmm... I sure would like to see you wielding that Carthaginian civ sometime. Maybe against my Aztecs....

	14-05-2004 23:46									#33
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I think Mongolia is a strong (?) contender for weakest civ. Militaristic is the worst trait IMNSHO, Expansionistic is unreliable and Keshiks don't shine. I want to cry every time I compare them to Ansar Warriors.


For some reason, the AI Mayans have consistently done poorly in my games. It's rather odd given their traits.

	15-05-2004 00:01									#34
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Really? Wow - the Mayans are one of the strongest AI civs in my games, almost without fail.

	15-05-2004 01:07									#35
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The Mayans will blow their GA very early.

	15-05-2004 01:32									#36
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I don't think the Maya could really contend for "worst" civ honors, since they certainly have their strengths. They are the ultimate REXing civ - somewhat like the old PTW Americans, but better.

The Jav Thrower, while kind of neat for the slave generation thing, is weak overall, IMO. 30 shields for 2/2/1. That's just not a lot of combat effectiveness for your shields.

In one of my first epic games after I got conquests, I played the Iroquois and took on the Maya in ancient warfare. I had no horses and no iron. So I archer rushed the Maya. I had a stack of 2 spears, several catapults, and a bundle of archers. IIRC, they had iron, but only fielded a couple of swords early on and then I took their source away from them. The seemed to primarily use Jav throwers, 'cause I saw a lot of them. Not only did I win, but the Maya didn't win a battle until I had them down to 1 city. The unit is crap in actual warfare against other civs. It's an expensive Bab bowman.

Another problem with the Maya - for me - is their wonderbuilding GA triggers. Same problem Egypt has - the best ancient wonder of the world (the Pyramids) will trigger their GA, blowing it early. It's not that an early GA is necessarily bad, but I hate it when juicy ancient wonders trigger it.

-Arrian

	15-05-2004 02:07									#37
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The reason for the Mayans doing poorly in my games have at least partly been poor start locs, as well as starting next to me a couple of times. In one game I flattened their second city with one of my first Warriors. They never really recovered from that setback before I wiped them out in the mid Middle Ages.

	15-05-2004 08:52									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Another problem with the Maya - for me - is their wonderbuilding GA triggers. Same problem Egypt has - the best ancient wonder of the world (the Pyramids) will trigger their GA, blowing it early. It's not that an early GA is necessarily bad, but I hate it when juicy ancient wonders trigger it.

I put England building either the Colossus or the Great Lighthouse (especially when playing on archiapelago maps) in the same category.

England has some amazing commerce bonuses that are compounded further by building hte Colossus and switching into Republic relatively early in the game. Unfortunately, that Colossus build will start your GA... which means you either start it really early under Despotism, or you wait for a more productive core under Republic... by which time someone else has already built the cheap wonder.

The Great Lighthouse isn't as bad, but there is such fierce competition to build it in archiapelago games that playing England can be harmful if you try to wait before building it.

	01-06-2004 19:35									#39
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I'm usually playing on Monarch level and my favorite is Sumeria by far. A river starting location and the cheapest of the cheap defending units are perfectly fit for an unbeatable REX. When I start in Flood plains, the first thing I produce is a Settler. In my last game I even got a scientific leader after researching Philosophy followed by Map making. Thanks to the quite underrated scientific trait. BTW I really don't mind a GA under Despotism.

I find it kinda weird to argue about the Mayans. The Javelin Thrower is quite useful, if you can take a early golden age. There is nothing compared to an army of free workers. You don't have to waste your precious PRODUCTION. And you don't have to cripple your science, by paying your COMMERCE to your workers. And you only devour your GROWTH to Settlers. Wonder building with the Maya is also quite easy as you can build the pyramids as well as the palace. Seems quite a reasonable choice.

	02-06-2004 10:38									#40
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Currently I'm mostly playing spain.
Religious is important, since you really need temples as quick as possible in demi-god / deity games.
And of course the anarchy period should be as short as possible.

Seafaring is important since it gives you a science boost at the beginning for the sake of the extra trade-resource. Without that I'm falling ages behind in research on the highest levels.

	03-06-2004 03:54									#41
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I think I would choose Japan.
I really like militaristic now, the extra promotions means extra armies. Now armies are enough to conquer entire civs on there own.

	03-06-2004 20:44									#42
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Since I like agricultural, religious and commercial, I prefer
the Iroquis (ag/com), Celt(rel/ag) and Indians (rel/com).
Especially the Iroquis, since their MW upgrades all the way to cavalry.
I do not have to worry about wonders, the AI will build them for me
(I usually play Demi/Deity), so I can time my GA with the unique unit.

Bernard

	03-06-2004 20:56									#43
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quote: Another problem with the Maya - for me - is their wonderbuilding GA triggers. Same problem Egypt has - the best ancient wonder of the world (the Pyramids) will trigger their GA, blowing it early. It's not that an early GA is necessarily bad, but I hate it when juicy ancient wonders trigger it.

Yes, that is a problem, but have you ever blown the GA upon finishing Hoover? If you mobilise at the same time you can pump out so many one turn tanks, It is unbe-freaking-lievable