13-05-2004 21:30									#1
	Wonder Discussion Thread Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Since the discovery of Ivory, we have be in unison about our plans to build the Statue of Zeus. However, things can change.

It is entirely likely that CDG will be destroyed before we complete the Statue of Zeus. We may have no military use for the Ancient Cavalry. It's also extremely likely that there are wonders that would serve us better than SoZ.

Personally, I like having the wonder in our pocket if for no other reason than to have it as a deterrant to war. The added bonus of having free units we can disband in corrupt cities for a growth burst is no small matter.

But I definately think we need to have this thread to discuss the issue. What are your thoughts? Should we continue towards SoZ or is there a wonder that will serve us better?

--Togas

	13-05-2004 21:58									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hell yeah, we should still get it.

"No military use"

Damn free units that can be usefull in attacking cavalry if nothing else.

Prevents other teams from getting it, hell disband them for shields at the least.

	13-05-2004 22:31									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Agreed. It never hurts to have free units around. And who's to say we won't find someone else to use them on any time soon

	13-05-2004 23:11									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

jsut for the debate, but what are the other wonders that we could build? I would suggest the Great Wall. That would scare PAL

or the Hanging Gardens. This would elp with the happiness, and at the moment we know of four luxes (furs near PAL and CDG, the ubiqutous Ivory, wines, and silks). While we may not need it, it would help.

	13-05-2004 23:56									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And I'll speak for Kloreep when I say that The Pryamids is still one of the top wonders in the game.

I remember earlier in dealing with PAL, they knew of a wonder that they wanted to build but had voted to not discuss what that wonder was. I think they should tell us.

	14-05-2004 01:18									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

I think we should go for Zeus. We can always change to the Pyramids later if we want. When are we going to start building it?

	14-05-2004 01:46									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Agreed with Don on both points. Though if it is the Pyrs PAL wants, I think we should consider going along with them considering A) They are ag, so can make better use of them and B) They're ind; they could build more workers and send some down to help us.

On Zeus: It would be a net loss looking purely at shields. Ancient Cav have a "cost" of 40, so they yield 8 shields when disbanded. At 1 every 5 turns, it would have to operate for 125 turns before it payed itself back.

However, militarily, I think it's a good deal we should go for. Ancient Cav are the best unit around until knights, and they continue to be useful afterwards. If you value them at 30 shields each (undervaluing them, IMO!) then it still only takes around 35 turns to produce its worth in Ancient Cav units.

PAL can protest we don't need military all they want, but we do. We may trust PAL, but not enough to go peacenik. However, if we build the SoZ, which should more than repay itself in military, we won't have to put as much in to building a deterrent military; and so, we can build other things that will help the alliance more.

Even PAL can't object to that, surely.

A harder question, IMO, is when to build it. It will probably have to wait for after we take CDG down.

	14-05-2004 01:50									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: It will probably have to wait for after we take CDG down.

If we do this, it may not be so useful. I would prefer to build it asap, but since we are not connecting the ivory anytime soon, we should get it in about 50 turns (rough estimate). It does cost 200 shields, right?

	14-05-2004 01:54									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yeah, 200 shields.

I don't like the consequences of waiting, either... every 5 turns delay is a wasted Ancient Cav. But those 200 shields may

If we can get it in about 50 turns, I suppose it might still be worth going for; I imagine we'll be striking in a little over 50 turns, so we could have 2 Ancient Cav out by then, with more on the way, when we attack.

Perhaps 40 turns would be a good spot to aim for. I bet we can get a city up to 5 spt fairly quick. The new blue city, perhaps? It doesn't have forest we won't be chopping while it builds Zeus.

	14-05-2004 01:57									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

that seems like a good spot. I like it. Do you want my job as well?
But then you're effectively back up turn player

	14-05-2004 02:04									#11
	Suffering from ads?

I'm all for starting the build in the blue city. It will be tied up for awhile but I think having Zeus will be a huge benefit. Hypnos and the other cities we build can pump the military.

Keep blue for Zeus!

	14-05-2004 03:28									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

We build Zeus. If anything, SoZ is a hedge in our bet that PAL won't attack us. With SoZ in our possession and our military possessing a sizable number of hoplites, catapults, swordsmen, and even augmented by a number of ancient cavalry, PAL will be greatly disinclined to attack us.

We need that wonder.

	14-05-2004 04:00									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

1) Zeus
2) Light house
3) Pyramids (give to pal if they request - it will also cause them to go into a GA)
4) Great Library
5) Great Wall
6) oracle or hanging gardens

Just my opinion

	15-05-2004 05:22									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Would the SoZ put us in GA?

	15-05-2004 06:08									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No.

SoZ is Rel/Mil.

Greece is Sci/Com.

	15-05-2004 10:07									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos We build Zeus. If anything, SoZ is a hedge in our bet that PAL won't attack us. With SoZ in our possession and our military possessing a sizable number of hoplites, catapults, swordsmen, and even augmented by a number of ancient cavalry, PAL will be greatly disinclined to attack us. We need that wonder.

start the build in the new city ASAP.

	17-05-2004 14:51									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Donegeal No. SoZ is Rel/Mil. Greece is Sci/Com.

Couldn't be better.

My opinion from some other thread has not changed. SoZ is great. We shouldn't be having to play this game long enough to get huge benefits from any other wonder, and we shouldn't care about the normal 'good' wonders, just survival. SoZ will help us survive no matter what, and with the longer-term exception of Leo's Workshop and the Great Wall would be the best one to do so.

	18-05-2004 01:37									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't think the Great Wall is so good. Leo's is a must-have, though.

	18-05-2004 02:53									#19
	Put an end to popups!

Quick Thought:

Assuming we get a SGL at some point, what wonder do we rush?

--Togas

	18-05-2004 03:57									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Really depends where we're at. We might want to save the SGL for later.

	18-05-2004 03:57									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This is where we need to start discussing wonders with PAL. As we have claimed Statue of Zeus, I would want to rush The Pyramids. If we don't discuss the topic with them and we do build Pyr and they get upset, then they should have told us that they wanted the wonder.

	18-05-2004 04:36									#22
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

So now we are building SoZ for a fact?

	18-05-2004 05:42									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If we get a SGL, Pyramids would certainly be on the top of my list. Though if we want to be nice to PAL and sacrifice some growth, we could save him for Leo's.

	18-05-2004 06:09									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd be inclined to use the SGL right away on Pyramids (if PAL's okay with it), simply to increasing our chances of getting another one in the time between Pyramids and Invention.

	18-05-2004 06:16									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Having a SGL does not interfere with getting another one; you can have multiple SGLs. Though for some reason it does prevent you from getting MGLs the same way having a MGL prevents you from getting more.

	18-05-2004 06:59									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

We just heard from PAL... they ARE going for Pyramids. They even already have a prebuild.

If we get a SGL it should be used on the Statue of Zeus. In chat F-P just said that we will see a MASSIVE climb in their score. We are going to need SoZ as an extra deterent to a back stab.

	18-05-2004 07:06									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

Rush a 200-shield wonder that only CDG can compete with us for? Tempting, but... save it for Leo's if we aren't going to use it on the Pyrs. SGLs often come only once in a gametime.

	18-05-2004 07:26									#28
	Got spare money?

Actually depending on the map, the lighthouse might not be a bad rush choice really though i'd want to have a good enough sea chart to decide what it does to our invasion options first.

	22-05-2004 23:46									#29
	Support Apolyton

In a survival game, Zeus is very important. With it, we are shoo ins to advance when combined with Hoplites. Just park the Ancient Calvary on the borders. The more importent thing though is that if we build it, none of the other players can.

Oh, and this should be a normal build, not a SGL rush.

	23-05-2004 00:35									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I would rather not to use the SGL on the SoZ but I think we should use it. We could possibly use it for Leo's but we won't know what we will need the most until the time comes.