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Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Civilization III > Civ3-Democracy Game > C3C IDG: Apolyton Team > ISDG Final Rules Ratification
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Do we ratify these rules?
This poll is closed.
Ratify 3 27.27%
Vote Against Them 7 63.64%
Abstain 1 9.09%
Total: 11 voters 100%
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Togas is offline Togas
Emperor
California
Jun 2002
time: 21:36
  Old Post 13-05-2004 21:39
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ISDG Final Rules Ratification Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:

Team Captains are hereby directed to the following thread:

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...opic.php?t=6971

Please take the necessary time to debate and/or vote on ratification of
these rules within your private forums and cast your vote on behalf of
your team as quickly as possible.

Failure to participate in this vote will be considered a vote by proxy in
favor of ratification.

Respectfully,
FortyJ, on behalf of the IDG2 Admin Staff


After reviewing this final draft, should our team ratify it.

PLEASE post your objections if you have any.

UnOrthOdOx is offline UnOrthOdOx
Emperor
Hello....
Jun 2002
time: 22:36
  Old Post 13-05-2004 21:54
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I object to the whole punishment thing, but I did in the individual thread voting as well.

So...whatever.

I think we're getting a far too complicated in all this, but am sure I'm in the minority.

civman2000 is offline civman2000
Emperor
of the Martian Empire
Jun 2001
time: 23:36
  Old Post 13-05-2004 22:56
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Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

. I'm against any rules with a "treaty distribution" rule.

Krill is offline Krill
Emperor
On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-05-2004 23:03
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Get a bigger avatar today!

How are the admins going to enforce some of those rules, short of constant survelience of all the forums? And what UnOrthOdOx said

Vote agains it.

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:36
  Old Post 13-05-2004 23:08 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:

Regulating Out-of-Game Conduct


0.0 - Game Staff Authority

0.0.1 - Definitions

Intent: Many of the below rulings are based on the intent of a team or individual. Intent is determined by the Game Staff and is only decided after investigation.


0.1 - Punishment

There are three possible punishment levels for breaking the rules. These are Yellow, Orange, and Red Offenses. All punishments for rule breaking will be determined by the game staff. The punishments listed with each rule/section are general guidelines, they are by no means a limit or restriction to the minimum/maximum punishment for a given offense.

The minimum punishment for an orange offense is forfeiture of one turn of play, which will be skipped by the game staff. Where rules explicitly state otherwise and for repeat offences the game staff will determine what a team will forfeit.

A team that commits a Red Offence will forfeit an enormous amount of turns, in upwards of 30 or 40 turns, they may even be ejected from the current game. A repeat offense is easily enough for they to be expelled from the entire IDG or ever playing on CDG again.

Team Punishments include:
  • Skipping Turns (no actions taken, just hitting enter)
  • Anarchy*
  • Forfeiture of unfairly acquired assets (cities, units, etc.)
  • Ejection from the current game
  • Suspension From the rest of the IDG (to include the championship game)
  • Expulsion from ever playing on or with CDG again
*Note: Starting a revolution in the first turn, and allowing play to resume as normal. Upon exiting Anarchy, the punished team must select their previous form of government. Religious civs will be required to remain in Anarchy for a select number of turns consistent with the duration of Anarchy for non-religious civs.

Personal Punishments include:
  • Suspension for # of turns as prescribed by the game staff
  • Ejection from the rest of the current game
  • Suspension from the rest of the IDG (to include the championship game)
  • Expulsion from ever playing on or with CDG again

0.2 - Team Memberships

0.2.1 - Membership Roster

Description: All teams are required to maintain a public listing of their membership. This list will include the name of the members, at a minimum.

Purpose: To help everyone know who is on what team and help discourage and prevent out-of-game espionage.

Verdict: Not posting or keeping the teams public listing up to date within 15 calendar days is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once - Yellow, (verbal warning), Repeat – Yellow (written warning and apology)

0.2.2 - Allowed Memberships

Description: Each forum will be allowed to determine the requirements for membership of its team as it sees fit. However, a person may only be a member of one team at any given time. A double membership is automatically considered out-of-game espionage.

Purpose: To disallow the use of out-of-game espionage and prevent anything that resembles out-of-game espionage.

Verdict: Double membership is strictly prohibited and doing so is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (Ejection – Personal or Team)


0.3 - Switching Teams

0.3.1 - Switching Teams

Description: No team member is allowed to switch teams, until after their team is knocked out of the game, and this is with special restrictions as stated below.

Definition: Switching teams between the two games is allowed, provided that the person is on only one team at a time. Your team being knocked out of the current game makes you refugees, for the remainder of this game only.

Purpose: To minimize the opportunity and possibility of out-of-game espionage.

Verdict: Switching teams is a personal and team violation for both the individual who switched teams and the team who allowed him to switch. If a team reports that they did not know about the team switch, because of a different name or otherwise, it will be considered a personal offense.

Punishment Level: Red (Ejection – Personal and/or Team)

0.3.2 - Membership retention after Defeat

Description: Members of teams that were defeated in the current game are allowed to join the team that conquered them, if the team will have them. They may also join neighboring teams that they had contact with at the time of their defeat.

Definition: Neighboring does not mean specifically teams adjacent to them in game, more specifically it means teams they would have had the capability to travel to with their current technology.

Verdict: See 0.3.1 Switching teams for the verdict and punishment levels.

0.3.3 - Refugees

Description: Upon becoming a refugee according to rule 0.3.1, refugees may join another team provided that their team had in-game contact with the team they wish to join or the team they wish to join has/had in-game contact with at least two teams that had in-game contact with the eliminated team.


0.4 - Out-of-Game Espionage

0.4.1 - Inadvertent or Accidental Espionage

Description/Procedures: All teams and their members are allowed to visit/view any other team's public access areas. An accidental viewing of a private or secure area due to a security hole or other bug/glitch in any software should not be considered a deliberate act of espionage provided the following conditions are met:
  1. The members must have exited the private area immediately upon such discovery (it is up to each forum to clearly label its private areas.)
  2. The member must privately inform his team leader of the inccident, the team leader must put the member in contact with one of the game staff and the member must give the game staff details about the incident (how it happened, how much was seen, etc.) The game staff will then inform the violated team of its security problem and which team violated their security and then determine what action if any should be taken against the member. Action to be taken should not exceed a 50-turn exclusion of the member from the game.
0.4.2 - Intentional Espionage

Description: Any out-of-game espionage in any form is strictly prohibited.

Definition: Trying to hack the secure team forum(s), continuously logging team chat channels, inserting moles in an opponent's team, hacking screenshots or savegame upload location, or any other action considered espionage as determined by the game staff

Verdict: doing any of the above as determined by the game staff is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (Ejection)



In-Game Glitches/Bugs/Exploits


1.1 - Double-Duty Exploit

Description: No team or individual is permitted to 'allow' the capture of their bombardment or workers with the intent of executing a double-duty exploit.

Definition: Two or more teams capturing and recapturing non-combat units (Including bombardment units) with the intent to use them against a third party team simultaneously.

Purpose: To prevent two or more teams from sharing units and their abilities in the same turn for multiple turns.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows Double-Duty through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (5-20 Turns)


1.2 - Resource Sharing Exploit

Description: No team or individual is permitted to share a single resource through the use of the Resource Sharing Exploit.

Definition: Two teams gifting and regifting a resource as well as cancelling it allow two teams to get use of the same resource that wouldn't be otherwise possible.

Purpose: A resource is to be used by one team per turn, no exceptions.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows Resource Sharing through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: First Offense/Turn (warning) - Yellow, Repeat Offense (2 or more turns) - Orange (2 + turns)


1.3 - Leader Sacrifices

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise allow another team to kill-off any of its units with the intent of creating a leader for either team.

Definition: A team creating weak units or sending its out-of-date units after another team with the intent of helping that team create a leader.

Purpose: To prevent great leaders from appearing between two allied teams abusing the game system

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows Leader Sacrifices through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once (1 Unit) – Orange (1 Turn), Repeat Offense - Red (2-10 Turns)


1.4 - Worker Sacrifices

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise allow another team to kill-off any of its units using those units with the capture ability with the intent of creating a worker for either team.

Definition: A team creating weak units or sending its out-of-date units after another team with the intent of helping that team create workers.

Purpose: To prevent workers from appearing between two allied teams abusing the game system.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows Worker Sacrifices through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once (1 Unit) – Orange (1 Turn), Repeat Offense - Red (2-10 Turns)


1.5 - War Happiness

Description: No team or individual is permitted to declare war on anyone with the intent of generating some happiness amongst its populace.

Definition: A team declaring war on another just to invoke a little extra happiness.

Purpose: To prevent this 'feature' from being exploited and retain the spirit of the game.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows Happiness to be generated in such a way as to violate the purpose of this rule through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1+ Turns), Repeat Offense – Red (1-20 Turns)


1.6 - Invalid Map Trading

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade any sort of map, whether it be a screen shot, minimap, hand drawing, or any other 'picture' of the in-game map, mini-map, or embassy screenshot before the requisite tech is discovered. Verbal/text descriptions are allowed, but coordinates are not.

Definition: A team creating screen shots, drawings, or other depictions of any part of the in-game map before the requisite tech has been discovered.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing maps to be traded before they are allowed in-game.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows any map trading before the tech is discovered through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1-5 Turns), Repeat Offense - Red (2-20 Turns)


1.7 - Exchange of Contact

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade any sort of contact information until the requisite tech is discovered. A simple statement to team 'Z' that you live next to team 'Y' is allowable so long as no transactions are made or brokered between the two.

Definition: A team trading anything for any location or contact information before allowed in-game.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing contact and location information to be traded before they are allowed in-game.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows any contact or location information trading before the tech is discovered through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1-5 Turns), Repeat Offense - Red (2-20 Turns)


1.8 Enjoining Teams

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade multiple cities with the intent of joining teams to destroy another team and keep both teams alive to survive to the end. If a team decides to drop out however, its players are allowed to change teams as permitted under Section 0.3.

Definition: A team trading one or more cities to another team for the purpose of either granting that team an advantage (premature contact with another civ, map information, etc.), or denying an aggressor the right of conquest.

Trading and or gifiting cities is permitted, but each transaction shall be reviewed by the administrators of the game. If a specific transaction is considered to be in violation of the spirit of this law, then the traded/gifted cities may be forcibly returned to their original owner(s) or simply abandoned at the sole discretion of the administrators.

As a general rule, the administrators will consider city gifts/trades that are temporary in nature (ie. only a few turns in duration) and those given/traded for the purpose of granting a team an advantage (premature contact, map information, etc.) or to deny another team the right of conquest to be against the spirit of this law.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing contact and location information to be traded before they are allowed in-game or to unfairly prevent a conquering civ from taking your cities.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows any contact or location information trading before the tech is discovered through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1-5 Turns and/or Cities), Repeat Offense - Red (5+ turns, Double cities given, and possible ejection, suspension, or expulsion).



Metagame Tricks


2.1 - Reloading

Description: No team or indivdual is allowed to reload the game with the intent of altering the outcome of any event, combat, or other in-game result.

Definition: Someone reloading the game when something happens that they don't like and wish to change. Playing the turn in a different order to alter the outcome of said happenings.

Purpose: To prevent a team from replaying a turn until the most optimum outcome is achieved or otherwise increasing their odds of winning.

Verdict: Reloading the game or using any exploit or bug that allows altering the RNG outcome or replaying a turn through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (1-10 Turns)


2.2 - Save Manipulation

Description: No team or individual is permitted to use the PBEM savegames or other files to obtain information or alter any in-game element. This includes monitoring or altering memory while the game is loaded. Using MapStat is also prohibbited.

Definition: An individual scanning or monitoring loaded files into memory or altering a file can obtain location information and more, they can even alter in game data.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing someone to outright cheat.

Verdict: Using these or any other methods that allows altering the in-game content through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once - Automatic Expulsion


2.3 - Zoomed Loading

Description: No team or individual is permitted to have their settings set to have the game zoomed out when loading a PBEM savegame.

Definition: Loading the game when zoomed out can reveal information that you would not otherwise have access to.

Purpose: To prevent the gathering of information against the spirit of the game.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows learning any information about another team that you would not be able to get through the in-game espionage system is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once - Red (1-10 Turns)

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:36
  Old Post 13-05-2004 23:09 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Full PM-box? Change here!

quote:
2.4 - Misleading through Renaming

Description: No team or individual is permitted to rename a unit or city with the intent of misleading or confusing opponents.

Definition: Cities can be renamed to names of tech or sums of gold or anything else in an effort to not trade what that opponent agreed to. Units can be renamed to other units and appear to be something else entirely.

Purpose: To prevent the misleading or confusion of another team through malicious use of in-game features.

Verdict: Using this 'feature' or any other feature or exploit that allows misleading or confusing another team is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Red (5-Expulsion and forfeiture of double what was not legally traded)



Game Mechanics tricks


3.1 - Fortifying a boat/passenger

Description: Similar to 3.1, except now addressing sea vessels. The sea vessel also would enjoy increased visibility during the next turn. A team can move the vessels the full allotment of movement points then “wake” the passengers and give them then “Fortify all” command which fortifies the sea vessel as well. It is allowed to use the “Fortify All” command on a vessel or a stack of vessels that has movement points left before the command was issued.

Definition: A team may get the effect of a sea vessel being fortified prior to an attack when that vessel should have not have been able to fortify itself because it had no movement points to do so.

Purpose: To prevent the illegal use of having increased visibility.

Verdict: Using this command on a stack of vessels with passengers or a lone vessel with passengers that do not have any movement points left is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Red (1-5 Turns)


3.2 - Hitting F1/back-forward to change production

Description: It is possible to use F1 to go into city views and change production or rush items before a city has been reached in the pre-turn production queue.

Definition: This can result in tech-enabled units and Wonders being completed the very turn the tech is researched, or production to be changed in response to an enemy's actions (like Walls if a stack moves toward a specific city and not another).

Purpose: To prevent the unfair allocation of resources not intended to be used in a certain way on the previous turn and keep gameplay flowing within the spirit of the game.

Verdict: Using the pre-turn production queue at the beginning of a turn to change production or to rush builds in a city is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once - Red (2+ Turns)


3.3 - Hitting F1/back-forward for double tile usage

Description: It is possible to use F1 to go into city views and use the Forward/Back buttons to change the work force allocations before a city has been reached in the pre-turn production queue so that a tile can be used to used by 2 or more different cities in the same turn. .

Definition: This can result in the possibility of a bonus tile being “shared” by 2 or more cities.

Purpose: To prevent the unfair allocation of resources.

Verdict: Using the pre-turn production queue at the beginning of a turn to change production or to rush builds in a city is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Red (1-10 Turns)


3.4 - Using GoTo/Auto-Explore/Auto-Workers to get extra movement

Description: The last team in the turn order can issue the “GoTo” command, and have a unit move twice before the next turn begins. This is very strong in war-time. Every Civ has that option, that's why it is stipulated that no one use go-to. Note: This does not provide an extra turn of movement, but rather advances the timing of that movement (ie. 2 moves in turn 1, and 0 moves in the final turn of the task). Similar results can be achieved with auto-explore and auto-workers.

Definition: This can result in the last team to play in a given turn, the ability to move their units twice before another team could move in between

Exception: Automation of worker tasks (roading, mining, irrigating, etc.) is permitted. Stack & individual unit movement that concludes within territory currently (when order is given, not when units arrive) visible (ie. not unexplored and not in the fog of war) is permitted. Automated moves are subject to administrator oversight. Contested moves that result in an unfair advantage (ie. arriving at a location before another team that would have arrived first, but wasn't using automated movement; reinforcing a poorly defended city or location; etc.) will remain a violation of this rule.

Purpose: To prevent the unfair movement of units; especially during war time.

Verdict: Getting two moves out of a unit or units before you opponent can move through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once - Orange (1-5 turns), Repeat - Red (2-10 turns)


3.5 - Chaining naval transports to quickly move land units across water

Description: It is possible to wake a land unit at sea, and transfer it from one transport to another. Given enough ships, a chain can be created to instantaneously move units across bodies of water (by ending in port).

Verdict: This is to be allowed.


3.6 - Teleporting units gifting cities

Description: A team can instantaneously transport units from any city back to their capital by simply gifting it to another team. This results in very weird strategy.

Definition: This can result in a Civ’s units being transported out of harms way or to a new war front.

Purpose: To prevent the unfair movement of units; especially during war time.

Verdict: Moving your units in this way or any other way that is against the spirit of the game as determined by the game staff is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Red (10-Expulsion)


3.7 Accepting a Peace Treaty from a Civ then immediately declaring war

Description: A team at war with another can accept the latter's Peace Treaty, then declare war afterward in order to eliminate War Weariness from that team. This results in a huge advantage if the peace-seeking team is not aware of the trick.

Definition: This can result in a team’s properly acquired War Weariness being shut off and the possibility for the other team to suffer from it should they redeclare war.

Purpose: To prevent unfairly using the games mechanics to negate or reverse the effects of War Weariness,

Verdict: Do not accept peace if your intention is to behave in a war-like manner, unless a determination by the game staff to fall within the rules of this ruleset dictates so. Any method to break war weariness in any such manner is a direct violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Orange (2-10 Turns), Repeat Offense - Red (5-Expulsion)


3.8 - Staying at war to upkeep War Weariness but not actual fighting

Description: Being kept at war by a team with the intent of inflicting War Weariness, and the penalties that are associated with it.

Definition: This can result in a team’s War Weariness being applied and worsened when the team no longer wishes or is able to wage war against the other.

Purpose: To prevent unfairly using the games mechanics to increase, exaggerate, or prolong the effects of War Weariness when waging war is not a reasonable option as determined by the game staff.

Verdict: A team must accept a peace offer, within a reasonable amount of time (determined by the game staff), if war has not been waged or reasonably waged in a reasonable amount of time (all determined by the game staff)

Punishment Level: Once - Orange (1-5 turns and/or Forfeiture or funds), Red (5 – Expulsion)



Reputation and Honor System


4.1 - Official Treaties

All in-game treaties can be submitted to the game staff for an official record. All teams in the treaty must confirm the exact wording with the game staff for the treaty to be officially recorded.


4.2 - Distribution of Treaties

All offial treaties will kept private. The only exception to this is where a team in a treaty asks the game staff to send a copy of the treaty to another team.

Example:
  • Team A and Team B have a treaty, which they submit to the game staff for the official record.
  • Team A believes that Team B has broken their treaty, and tell Team C of this.
  • Team B believes they did nothing wrong and tells Team C this.
  • Team A or Team B can ask the game staff to send a copy of the official treaty to Team C.
  • Team C can now make an informed decision on who they believe.

4.3 - Fairness Pledge

Every team must agree to the fairness pledge before the game starts:

“I pledge to compete fairly and within the rules of the game. I pledge to adhere not only to the written rules, but also to the unwritten, spirit of the rules. I understand that failure to live up to this pledge may result in penalties for me and my team.”


4.4 - Battle Log

Description: For all combats, teams must submit a log of what units attacked, retreated, died, won, etc. from each battle on that turn to the team they attacked. This includes the capture of units and cities.

Verdict: Failure to email a log to the game staff of all combat actions is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Yellow (Warning), Yellow/Orange (case by case basis)



Ammendments


5.1 - Addition of Newly Discovered Exploits

5.1.1 - Authority

The teams agree to abide by the rulings of the game staff should a new, previously unknown bug/exploit appear in the game.

5.1.2 - Disclosure Requirements

Every team has to control its own actions and to look for bugs or game mechanics which could be defined as a bug or exploit. When a team finds such a mechanism (which may or may not known by other teams), they are compelled to bring this to the attention of the game administrators immediately.

The game staff will be responsible for resolving the issue amongst the concerned parties, or in the case of a potential new exploit, the admins will be responsible for facilitating a discussion (while preserving the anonymity of the identifying team) and a vote on the issue (by the team captains).

5.1.3 - Time Requirements

At the game administrators’ discretion, all timers and other time-keeping mechanisms may be stopped while discussions on the new exploit are ongoing.

5.1.4 - Procedure

A rule prohibiting a newly discovered or recently recognized exploit may be added to the ruleset provided it successfully passes a two-thirds (2/3) majority vote of all remaining teams, which shall be defined as those teams still participating in the current games as well as those teams still eligible to compete in the final game.


5.2 - Ammending Existing Rules

5.2.1 - Limitations

The Existing Ruleset may be ammended at any time during the game.

5.2.2 - Procedure

An existing rule may be ammended or removed after successfully receiving a two-thirds (2/3) majority vote of all remaining teams, which shall be defined as those teams still participating in the current games as well as those teams still eligible to compete in the final game.



Turn Progression


6.1 - Time allowed for a turn

Every team has a maximum of 24 real world hours to play its move and to send the save. This does not mean, that every team must use all 24 hours.


6.2 - Extensions to time limits

6.2.1 - Limitations

In some cases a team is allowed to take more time for a move:
  1. If the request is announced in time, which means before the requesting teams turn limit has expired, and if the game staff deem it reasonable.

    or...

  2. Technical problems, like a downed forum (verified by the game staff).
6.2.2 - Authority

The Game Staff will determine how much extra time is appropriate for the situation, if any.

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:36
  Old Post 13-05-2004 23:14 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Tired of ads?

OK

The above is the rules as they currently stand.

Our comments were taken in consideration as well as comments from NINE OTHER TEAMS.

No set of rules like this that has 11 different inputs (including the admins) is going to be perfect. There is going to be things you dont like.

So please before you vote against this remember, it is a cooperative effort and Before you vote no because you dont like something, just remember hat because you dont like it doen't mean we dont need it.

There are other teams in this tournament that aren't anywhere near as honorable as we are.

Now with that being said if there is something that you absoulutely cant live with then vote no.

But this is the final version, and its a simple yes or no at this point.
Enough said

Kloreep is offline Kloreep

Emperor
of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 14-05-2004 01:32
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Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

How the hell did that treaty section get in there?

I just checked the ISDG, and there was a discussion of this. A discussion in which Lucky was the only one to support it. But it was not an official vote, and I guess it slipped in to this "final" version.

NO. I can live with everything else, but 4.1 and 4.2 are ridiculous and have to go. Especially considering GCA seems to be the only team that supports it.

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:36
  Old Post 14-05-2004 01:53 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by Kloreep
How the hell did that treaty section get in there?

I just checked the ISDG, and there was a discussion of this. A discussion in which Lucky was the only one to support it. But it was not an official vote, and I guess it slipped in to this "final" version.

NO. I can live with everything else, but 4.1 and 4.2 are ridiculous and have to go. Especially considering GCA seems to be the only team that supports it.


Well that was the time that BF was getting kind of busy as I was phasing out of keeping track of the nitty gritty details at the UN. By the time I realized BF probably wouldn't have the time to do it the thread was locked.

And I believe if you search a little more there is a second thread, where we did voice our displeasure with Treaties sent to the admins. If I remember correctly the ones who responded in that thread, did not think it was that big of a deal.

I'll hunt around and see if I can find it.

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

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Take a look at this thread, more than just Lucky didn't think it was a big deal.

And we did voice our displeasure over it:

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...opic.php?t=6637

civman2000 is offline civman2000
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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
Take a look at this thread, more than just Lucky didn't think it was a big deal.

And we did voice our displeasure over it:

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...opic.php?t=6637

Anarres was pretty much the only other person who actually approved of it. Given that there was no vote on it but 3 representatives disapproved and 2 approved, there is little justification for it being in the final rules.

I think we should bring this issue up in the voting thread there to make sure it isn't overlooked. I understand and agree we can't get our way on everything, but there's no reason to not even have a vote on this.

Last edited by civman2000 on 14-05-2004 at 03:11

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

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No offense civman but take another look.

The only team to object to filing of treaties is Apoly.

GCA said yes
CDZ said yes
CGN said yes
Apoly said no.

civman2000 is offline civman2000
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Eh?

GCA said yes.
CDZ said they didn't really care either way (abstain).
CGN said nothing about it but did disagree with lucky (probably no then).
Poly said no.
An admin said no (which does have some significance, at least as far as demanding a vote is concerned).

Thus that's 2-1-1 or 3-1-1 against.

Arnelos is offline Arnelos
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  Old Post 14-05-2004 03:24
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No. That treaty distribution thing is absolutely ludicrous.

Why can't the offended party just distribute the treaty themselves?

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quote:
Originally posted by civman2000
Eh?

GCA said yes.
CDZ said they didn't really care either way (abstain).
CGN said nothing about it but did disagree with lucky (probably no then).
Poly said no.
An admin said no (which does have some significance, at least as far as demanding a vote is concerned).

Thus that's 2-1-1 or 3-1-1 against.


Well I just dont read it that way.

The only thing negative CGN said was about Lucky himself and his team. It didn't even pertain to the issue at hand.

But hey quite frankly Im sick and tired of these rules. I have been working them on and off with people like Lucky since November.

Im really at the point where I dont care either way personally how we vote, I just dont give a crap any more.

So if providing a treaty to the admins is a show stopper, you guys go ahead and vote no.

I guess in the greater scheme of things I dont see it as a big deal.

Togas is offline Togas
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Sure, a lot of the rules are good and I have no objections to the majority of them, but the whole '3rd party treaty verification service' to resolve disputes between teams to see who's lieing is absolutely petty and ridiculous!

Frankly, the Admins should try passing EACH LAW SEPARATELY. Lumping them all together like this is a recipe for disaster. I'm casting a vote against it and I propose that we appoint a new rep to the UN to lobby for something more palitable.

--Togas

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Furthermore, I suggest that we get CDG, CGN, and PAL to back us on this. We'd have more influence in numbers. The rules are almost ready but we really need to voice our dissent and explain what we'd want to see.

--Togas

BigFree is offline BigFree

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  Old Post 14-05-2004 05:38
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I put a little time into this as well. I don't like the final version too much but it's mostly acceptable except for 4.1 and 4.2. I have to agree with Kloreep in that they have to go. I will vote yes when they are left out.

Octavian X is offline Octavian X
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I'm voting no on this one as well. The entire sections on punishment and treaty 'distribtion' are, quite frankly, pieces of rotten ****.

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I think you will find it difficult to get PAL to go along with this.

There way of looking at the rules all along has been: "We dont really care, whatever you guys decide is fine, because quite frankly we dont want to spend the time on this sort of thing."

I will however certainly ask them.

And all the rules have been voted on already individually. And if you start checking all the threads you will find after a while that at least half the teams weren't even commenting all along.

But a new "Team Leader" would be fine by me. Im burnt out on the UN suff.

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con, if necessary, I could take over U.N. duties, but not until my school year is over in June. God knows I don't do anything else around here.

civman2000 is offline civman2000
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  Old Post 15-05-2004 17:16
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How long does this poll last?

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quote:
Originally posted by civman2000
How long does this poll last?


If you want me to vote its over this thursday.

If someone else votes then next saturday.

Thats the UN deadlines.

Im leaving for Romania next weekend so I wont be able to mess around much with CIV.

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I just need to know what you want me to do by thursday.

The poll is pretty overwhelming right now, I doubt it will change much.

I guess the plan should be we vote against but would ratify if the treaty provisions were removed.

let me know.

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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25


The poll is pretty overwhelming right now, I doubt it will change much.

I guess the plan should be we vote against but would ratify if the treaty provisions were removed.



That's the way I see it as well.

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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
I guess the plan should be we vote against but would ratify if the treaty provisions were removed.


Agreed.

--Togas

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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
I guess the plan should be we vote against but would ratify if the treaty provisions were removed.




That would change my vote. I can live with the over-elaborate punishment system since others seem to want it, but the treaty provisions must go.

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Looks like I have my marching orders

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quote:
Originally posted by Kloreep




That would change my vote. I can live with the over-elaborate punishment system since others seem to want it, but the treaty provisions must go.

Same here. That was my only real major objection.

civman2000 is offline civman2000
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  Old Post 17-05-2004 06:40
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Perhaps we could mention our complaint now to make sure some of the other teams are aware of it before the vote is about to end...

 
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