14-05-2004 15:13									#1
	Unit Hurry Cost Revisited! Get a bigger avatar today!

Just when you thought you'd seen it all ... just when you thought the poor old nag of a dead horse had been beaten into soap ... out pops another UNIT HURRY COST FORMULA! WOOHOO!

Everything I've done here is based on what others did before, I just made it work in a spreadsheet. How it works is that you enter the hurry cost and base production, and the spreadsheet returns 2 costs: minimum build cost & 10-surplus build cost.

Okay, so you've hit "hurry" on a unit and a cost pops up. How many minerals does that represent? We know we can look it up on the chart, but a formula would be better for a spreadsheet.

Let the full hurry Cost be "C". Inverting the famous x^2 / 20 + 2x equation means we must take the positive root of the quadratic formula:

10 * ((C / 5 + 4) - 2)

Rounded to the nearest integer, this exactly matches the chart!

The actual spreadsheet formula (where "B4" is the cell containing variable "C") looks like this:

ROUND(10 * (SQRT(B4 / 5 + 4) - 2))

Let's call that answer "M". (Mineral cost remaining.)

Now the Unit Cost = C / M, call that "U".

Let base production be "P".

Now the Exact Cost = ROUNDUP((M - P) * U)
And the 10-Over Cost = ROUNDUP((M - P + 10) * U)

The formulas I've given should be easy to plug into a spreadsheet (considering I just read them off mine to post this). Never look stuff up on tables again!

P.S. If you're under 10 stored minerals you'll have to halve the input cost and double the output cost for the formulas to work, and for prototype rush-builds you're on your own.

	14-05-2004 19:11									#2
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Nice work.

	14-05-2004 19:14									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have a faster, simpler and easier way to do it in my head without counting a single mineral.

And I'm not going to share it with you*

Ok, my way is only 95% accurate, but I can live with 2-3 wasted ecs.

*Well, I think you can guess anyway...

-Jam

	14-05-2004 19:50									#4
	Remove this text

I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. If I have to deal with an unrounded number of credits for one mineral, I just take a calculator and divide the hurry cost by the amount of minerals left. Much easier.

	15-05-2004 06:01									#5
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24minerals left to build , 48 ec cost ... my base is producing 12 minerals that leaves 12 so if i spend 24 then i'll get it done next turn !

.........

WTF !?!?!?!? 2 turns left to build
"Cannot make more then one hurry payment per turn"

****ing mofo gimme my 24ec back !!!

	15-05-2004 06:57									#6
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The purpose of the formula is to simplify the inputs as much as possible.

You look at the base's production and plug that into one cell. You hit the "Hurry" button and put the number that comes up into another cell. The answers appear.

In order for that to happen the spreadsheet must calculate backwards from the energy cost to how many minerals are being purchased, and for that you must use the quadratic formula.

The end result is clean and elegant: put the cost and production in, get the 2 optimized costs out (exact and +10).

	17-05-2004 08:47									#7
	Put an end to popups!

I simply do the whole thing in my head. Even when I'm completely exhausted I don't make a mistake. Base production minus ten divided by two, which is subtracted from the hurry cost. Pay the man. For SPs divide by four and don't subtract the ten from base production.

	17-05-2004 11:16									#8
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Sure, facilities and SPs are easy, but unit costs are more complicated and involve division with decimals. You can do the math in your head, but it takes a few seconds and getting it wrong by even 1 can cost a turn of production.

	17-05-2004 13:18									#9
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C = M^2 / 20 + 2M
U = C / M

U = M/20 + 2

M is available from the F4 screen. This is much easier than you make it out to be.

EC = (M - P) * U

EC = C - P*U

EC10 = C - (P - 10)*U

	17-05-2004 13:21									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: You can do the math in your head, but it takes a few seconds and getting it wrong by even 1 can cost a turn of production.

Which is why I do a rough estimate and then add one to make sure.

Its not like the overpayment is wasted, you get the minerals towards the next item anyway

-Jam

	17-05-2004 21:37									#11
	Remove this text

I don't understand why all the hassle. When I do the hurry I always use the full hurry cost, less 2*(base production - 10), if the base production is greater than 10. Is that not right?

For example, if the full hurry cost is 48 and my base production is 18, I put in 48-2*(18-10)=32.

Why do you need a spreadsheet to do that?

	17-05-2004 21:55									#12
	Put an end to popups!

Go go gadget mathematics!

It costs x ECs to rush y remaining minerals of a project.
your base is producing z minerals.

If you want to avoid wasting minerals but want the most complete rush possible, take
(y - z + 10)*(x/y)
So indeed you are incorrect.

	17-05-2004 22:28									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Jamski Its not like the overpayment is wasted, you get the minerals towards the next item anyway -Jam

It is if you calculate it to have exactly 10 minerals left over.

	17-05-2004 23:22									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova Go go gadget mathematics! It costs x ECs to rush y remaining minerals of a project. your base is producing z minerals. If you want to avoid wasting minerals but want the most complete rush possible, take (y - z + 10)*(x/y) So indeed you are incorrect.

(y - z + 10)*(x/y) = x - (z-10)*(x/y)

The only difference then is I suppose x/y is not necessarily 2. I know that for SPs it is 4. But under normal circumstances wouldn't that formula apply to most cases?

Let's see. My formula will make sure I get the production done by the next turn. However it may mean some waste if (x/y) is greater than 2. So that is what Jamski meant, since most of the times it is not much greater than 2 so the end result is that the waste is not bigger than a couple minerals most of the time, if any. And not having to open up a spreadsheet or try to look up what y is and do a calculation precise to the second decimal point, the savings of ones time and brain is certainly worth it.

	17-05-2004 23:39									#15
	Remove this text

HongHu,

I use a variation on your formula to figure out the hurry cost with no minerals left over:

48-2*18

This formula has never failed me, but I never figured out how to adjust it for 10 minerals leftover.

Sikander,
Thanks for the heads up on the SP hurry formula. I was never able to figure that one out either.

geesh, this is my 3rd edit

4th edit : : HongHu, I've thought about it some more and now I agree with you. This is the last time I post from work without playtesting my ideas.

Last edited by Net Warrior on 18-05-2004 at 00:56

	18-05-2004 00:03									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

My point exactly HongHu

I mean if I have 120 bases, and say 40 rushes each turn, I want it simple. With my method I can do the math instantaniously in my head (its just practice) and maybe waste 1 or 2 ecs in a turn. Rushing facs and SPs means there is never any waste.

-Jam

	18-05-2004 00:06									#17
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What you got there is that you won't have any mineral carry over NW.

[edit] And this is my 3rd edit too.

Last edited by Snowflake on 18-05-2004 at 00:19

	18-05-2004 00:14									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

lol HungHu, I already edited my post

	18-05-2004 00:16									#19
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Say you need 48 ecs to fully rush a production.

If your base production is less than 10 you rush it for 48 ecs and carry the min over.

If your base production is 10 you rush it for 48 ecs and carry the 10 min over.

If your base production is 11 you rush it for 46ecs (=48-2*(11-10)) and use 1 mineral and carry the rest 10 min over.

If your base production is 12 you rush it for 44 ecs (=48-2*(12-10)) and use 2 mineral and carry the rest 10 min over.

If your base production is 13 you rush it for 42 ecs (=48-2*(13-10)) and use 3 mineral and carry the rest 10 min over.

...

If your base production is 18 you rush it for 32 ecs (=48-2*(18-10)) and use 8 mineral and carry the rest 10 min over.

	18-05-2004 00:17									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Net Warrior lol HungHu, I already edited my post

And I edited mine too.

	18-05-2004 05:07									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't like counting mineral rows. You'd have to be a fighter pilot to enjoy distinguishing between bright blue, blue, and dull blue blocks on a dark blue background.

It is much easier on my eyes for me to take the ec figure from clicking "Hurry" as one of my inputs (and the equally easy-to-read "net mineral income" number on the right of the city resource display as my other.)

Buildings and SP's are, as someone else noted, "trivial", but units are ugly; I'd sooner extract a tooth than a root every time I want to rush a unit, so I let the spreadsheet do it for me.

However, I'm always open to new ideas, so ... here's the challenge:

Devise an approximating formula for optimized unit payments simple enough to do in one's head which takes ONLY hurry cost and production as inputs. The formula must be fail-safe: it must never under-pay!

HongHu gets the ball rolling, taking advantage of the fact that unit cost will never be less than two:

Approximation = Cost - 2 * Production

Using a test case 30-production base, 50-cost unit, 10 minerals pre-paid, we want to buy 10 more minerals to finish the unit early. (C - 2P) buys 25, which causes a waste of 5 units (20 ec).

I'll amend HH's formula with a "look-up table": 60, 160, 300 ec use production coefficients 3, 4, and 5. That is, at 60 ec the unit cost reaches 3, so you may safely discount 3 * P. You can remember the 60, 160, 300 breakpoints by remembering the pattern (3, 4, 5), (2, 4, 6):

3 * 2 * 10 = 60,
4 * 4 * 10 = 160,
5 * 6 * 10 = 300.

Or you could just buy me a better pair of glasses ...

Last edited by Santiago_Claus on 18-05-2004 at 05:13

	18-05-2004 06:12									#22
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F4 - production
You see the minerals made / total
Total - made = minerals left.

count them ECs and mins ya lazy bastards!

	18-05-2004 08:04									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

There is no way I will look up production using F4 40 times per turn. Lazy or not is discussable but I could always find better ways to utilize my time.

	18-05-2004 10:47									#24
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You mean you play your turns imperfectly?

You don't have time to count your mins, you don't have time to play your turns...
Why the hell are you still at Apolyton? Do you have a point to prove?

If so, I'll eagerly spend 72 hours waiting for you to prove it.

	18-05-2004 11:54									#25
	Got spare money?

If you start by managing all your rush-buying from the F4 screen, it's not anything of a bother to note the remaining minerals before opening a base, and that's only to check the base's production.

	18-05-2004 12:19									#26
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Hmmm do I have to prove a point to be at Poly?

* Snowflake reads the member agreement.

Nope.

Best wishes with your 72 hours.

	18-05-2004 13:47									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Hear hear...

	18-05-2004 14:33									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Is there a problem with just using Nethog's table? I have it printed beside me when I play and it takes me only a few seconds to look up the cost of rush building.

	18-05-2004 16:39									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Why don't you have it memorised

-Jam

	18-05-2004 17:27									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

Makes me wonder why you can't count the ECs manually, but using a table is an okay idea.