15-05-2004 12:25									#1
	Beyond Good and Evil Enter the AD-FREE zone

I heard good things, so I picked it up for $20 for my X-Box. WOW... why didn't more people buy this AMAZING game?! It's absolutely wonderful! Great graphics, magnificent story, fun puzzles and just very nicely made.

It's a big mystery why it didn't sell. Kind of like System Shock II and NOLF2, great games that should have sold more.

Here is the end of Gamespy.com's review:

quote: Experiencing BG&E is like interacting with a really good movie. It offers the richest, most original and intriguing world I've seen in a video game since Deus Ex, and is the best modern Zelda-style adventure game outside of Zelda itself. In fact, I like it more than Wind Waker, since it lacks WW's tedious midgame and has a story worth caring about. It's a pity that it's over all too soon, leaving me wanting more of just about everything. That's enough to keep me from awarding the highest score, but only barely. Beyond Good and Evil completely lives up to the first half of its title: It's great.

	15-05-2004 16:30									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

... "great story"?

I found it pretty dull after a while. All the 'puzzles' amount to pretty much the same thing and they are often either explained to you, so as to not be difficult, or rely on jumping around, ect... But I guess the game is alright in a lame consoley sort of a wait.

	15-05-2004 22:14									#3
	Remove this text

I got it today for £15(second-hand) on xbox, it is very nicely done - great graphics/sounds, decent characters etc, it feels like a lot of effort went into making it.
Truely over looked by most i understand.

Still i'm not a great fan of heavily scripted games(re-play value?), and the puzzles so far have been easy - a good game for younger/casual players maybe?
I'll wait for my girlfriends verdict as she has more experience with console games, but so far for £15 i really can't complain

	15-05-2004 22:39									#4
	Suffering from ads?

It's available on pc too
Reviews on the game were very good. Btw how do you know it didn't sell?


PS: most people are morons: after all why else are CS and the Sims so popular

	15-05-2004 23:41									#5
	Got spare money?

quote: "great story"?

Yes, great story . How many other games have the main character be a photographer who has to expose the truth. Very inventive.

quote: decent characters

Indeed! You really get to feel for the characters.

quote: Btw how do you know it didn't sell?

Because after a month or so, the price of it dropped from $40 to $20.

	16-05-2004 01:08									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: "great story"? Yes, great story . How many other games have the main character be a photographer who has to expose the truth. Very inventive.

I agree that the premise is good, but the actual story itself is cheesy and filled with cliches.

The photgraphy isn't implemented all that well, either... it's basically just replacing the cross hairs with a camera lens. I remember playing a pokemon game many years ago on the N64, which was the first time that diea was used I think, and even it had a bit more of an interesting system that required you to frame things well and get it in focus.

	16-05-2004 01:35									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I didn't buy it because I heard it was very short (about 15 hours of gameplay, IRC) Is it me or games are getting shorter and shorter? I didn't buy Splinter Cell: Pandora tomorow for the same reason.

	16-05-2004 03:35									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: the actual story itself is cheesy and filled with cliches.

It's a video game dude! It's required to be cheesy and clicheistic!

quote: photgraphy isn't implemented all that well, either... it's basically just replacing the cross hairs with a camera lens.

Yeah... but the mere fact of having the photography angle is good. If I had to focus things and frame crap, I'd go nuts. I already have problems capturing those animals!

quote: I didn't buy it because I heard it was very short

Well for $20, the shortness becomes less of a problem .

	16-05-2004 03:44									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It's a video game dude! It's required to be cheesy and clicheistic!

Coming from someone who likes the Game Cube, and Pirates! 3 this isn't surprising. You obviously have the tastes and standards of a six year old.

	16-05-2004 04:11									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Wonderful ad hominem attack... of course seeing as I don't have a Gamecube and people of many ages like Pirates! 2 (There is no such thing as Pirates! 3), perhaps you should learn to educate yourself before making such attacks. But I guess that is too much to ask, for you to actually have a ****ing brain.

Besides, why should your opinion count? You're a vegetarian for God's sake .

	16-05-2004 04:24									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I completely agree with Imran. Excellent game. Only problem is, as poorly as it sold, it's not getting a sequel, which the ending well demands.

My complaint about the game is that the stealth isn't very good. Far too easy to run around a corner or drop in an easily searched area and call it an escape. But I liked everything else, especially the camera.

	16-05-2004 04:25									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

wtf is wrong with vegetarians!! you foul flesh eating mass slaughterer.

	16-05-2004 04:34									#13
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well for $20, the shortness becomes less of a problem .

Yes. However, renting it is still cheaper. Which I did. And it's a fun little game with very nice graphics.

	16-05-2004 04:37									#14
	Suffering from ads?

quote: wtf is wrong with vegetarians!!

Ludd is one... sorry, guilt by association gets you .

	16-05-2004 06:42									#15
	Tired of ads?

quote: Wonderful ad hominem attack... of course seeing as I don't have a Gamecube and people of many ages like Pirates! 2 (There is no such thing as Pirates! 3), perhaps you should learn to educate yourself before making such attacks.

Attacks? It was merely an observation. It's not surprising that someone who likes childish games would expect video games to have 'cheesy and clicheistic' plots.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui (There is no such thing as Pirates! 3)

That's what's being made, isn't it? I remember you defending the disney graphics of it.

quote: You're a vegetarian for God's sake

which only shows that I have good taste.

quote: My complaint about the game is that the stealth isn't very good. Far too easy to run around a corner or drop in an easily searched area and call it an escape. But I liked everything else, especially the camera.

That reminds me of my biggest complaint about it... the camera. Maybe it was different for the console version (camera controls?) but the PC port has horrible pre-set camera views that switch directions mid-stride, zoom up to ridiculous levels, don't show you what you want to see, ect... it can be very frustrating at certain points.

	16-05-2004 07:19									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: It's not surprising that someone who likes childish games would expect video games to have 'cheesy and clicheistic' plots.

Well, I'll tell the game raters to make sure Grand Theft Auto is an 'E' next time because Ludd thinks it's a childish game . Same for Gothic and all of those other games I buy which have an 'M' on them .

quote: That's what's being made, isn't it?

You are utterly useless. How can there be a Pirates! 3 if there was no Pirates! 2? THIS is Pirates! 2

quote: which only shows that I have good taste.

If you consider eating soybean **** to be good taste..

	16-05-2004 07:24									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's not surprising that someone who likes childish games would expect video games to have 'cheesy and clicheistic' plots. Well, I'll tell the game raters to make sure Grand Theft Auto is an 'E' next time because Ludd thinks it's a childish game . Same for Gothic and all of those other games I buy which have an 'M' on them .

Oh yes, you can play games that have blood and gore. You're all grown up, now.

Braging about playing "M" rated games, only reaffirms what I said.

quote: You are utterly useless. How can there be a Pirates! 3 if there was no Pirates! 2? THIS is Pirates! 2

I thought there was already 2 of them made, or did they just not 'number' the second one?

quote: If you consider eating soybean **** to be good taste..

Well, it's certainly better than cow ****.

	16-05-2004 07:33									#18
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Braging about playing "M" rated games, only reaffirms what I said.

Ah yes... pointing out your incorrectness = bragging. Only to you and your 5 year old mind with those be consistent. Only someone with your lack of brain power would consider Gothic series and GTA series to be 'childish'.

quote: I thought there was already 2 of them made, or did they just not 'number' the second one?

Nice to display your ignorance. I guess you though Pirates! Gold was a sequal? Just like Civ2 Gold was, right? So we should be on Civ 6 instead of 4, right?

quote: Well, it's certainly better than cow ****.

Try a burger to disabuse you of that ignorant notion .

	16-05-2004 07:41									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Braging about playing "M" rated games, only reaffirms what I said. Ah yes... pointing out your incorrectness = bragging. Only to you and your 5 year old mind with those be consistent. Only someone with your lack of brain power would consider Gothic series and GTA series to be 'childish'.

I am not calling the games childish, I am calling your tastes childish. Isn't that what you always say - that you want 'straight-forward fun', cartoonish graphics, cheesy plots, ect... ?

quote: Nice to display your ignorance. I guess you though Pirates! Gold was a sequal? Just like Civ2 Gold was, right?

Well it was quite a bit more than just re-packaging and extra scenarios, wasn't it? Didn't it have completely new graphics and added features? Or am I thinking of some other pirate game?

I'm not ashamed of ignorance, by the way. If you never display your ignorance, you never learn anything.

quote: Try a burger to disabuse you of that ignorant notion .

So you actually like to eat cow ****? Interesting...

	16-05-2004 07:45									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: I am not calling the games childish, I am calling your tastes childish.

Of course, I have childish tastes in games when just about every game I own is 'non-childish' .

Try again.

quote: that you want 'straight-forward fun', cartoonish graphics, cheesy plots, ect...

So are fans of the Monkey Island series childish gamers?

quote: I thinking of some other pirate game?

Probably... when you don't know, you should just shut up and let the adults talk .

quote: So you actually like to eat cow ****?

I'd probably eat actual cow **** over soybean **** known as tofu (:vomit.

	16-05-2004 17:36									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Of course, I have childish tastes in games when just about every game I own is 'non-childish' . Probably... when you don't know, you should just shut up and let the adults talk .

More posturing that only serves to make you look even more childish. And in the most negative of ways.

	17-05-2004 23:36									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The camera implimentation in the xbox version is very intuitive, but then the xbox controller does sometimes have advantages over a keyboard+mouse combination, especially for comfort, but obviously its limited in how many commands.

Still i can see that the game suffered due to its shortness of playing time, and the fact that i imagine it has very little replay value. Which overall is a shame as the quality of the game is high and it is a fun game to play - sticking a further 20 odd hours of gameply onto it might well have made it more succesfull(bad word of mouth press can kill a game - same thing happened with CTP2).

	18-05-2004 23:21									#23
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's not surprising that someone who likes childish games would expect video games to have 'cheesy and clicheistic' plots. Well, I'll tell the game raters to make sure Grand Theft Auto is an 'E' next time because Ludd thinks it's a childish game .

come now, Imran, im sure GTA is a great game and all that, but the only people I know in RL who play it ARE children, and no, theyre not super bright kiddies looking for better intellectual stimulation. Games are rated based on violent content, NOT on how intellectually challenging they are. There are lots of very sophisticated TBS for example that ARE rated E. Now it wouldnt make sense to have a T rated game aimed at 12 year olds, unless of course the publisher is COUNTING on the fact that parents and even retailers ignore the T ratings.


Ludd: Imran DOES play SMAC. Surely you dont call that childish?

BTW, I like beef AND I like Tofu. the latter deep fried with Chinese vegetables is just heavenly.

	18-05-2004 23:34									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: the only people I know in RL who play it ARE children

You don't know many people in RL, do you? I mean, the mere fact that GTA: VC sold 11.5 million copies on the Playstation 2 ALONE indicates that plenty of adults are playing it.

quote: Games are rated based on violent content, NOT on how intellectually challenging they are.

Childish games are also characterized by lack of violence.

	18-05-2004 23:40									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: the only people I know in RL who play it ARE children

You don't know many people in RL, do you? I mean, the mere fact that GTA: VC sold 11.5 million copies on the Playstation 2 ALONE indicates that plenty of adults are playing it.

quote: Games are rated based on violent content, NOT on how intellectually challenging they are.

Childish games are also characterized by lack of violence.

	19-05-2004 02:44									#26
	Support Apolyton

So when do they make videogame versions of

Geneology of Morals, Zarathustra and the Gay Science?

	19-05-2004 03:06									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well buy 'Beyond Good and Evil' so it sells enough to spawn a sequal .

	19-05-2004 21:18									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: the only people I know in RL who play it ARE children You don't know many people in RL, do you? I mean, the mere fact that GTA: VC sold 11.5 million copies on the Playstation 2 ALONE indicates that plenty of adults are playing it. quote: Games are rated based on violent content, NOT on how intellectually challenging they are. Childish games are also characterized by lack of violence.

1. I know lots of people in RL, Imran, dont be silly. I dont usually bring up gaming in conversation, so I cant be sure, but my impression is that most adults i know dont play electronic games at all. Several play PC games(typically Myst, SimCity, Roller Coaster Tycoon, that sort of thing, though I know of one who is a serious TBS player, and one who played AOK, though we've lost touch - I knew him through his wife, and theyve since divorced), and I know at least one plays console games, though I dont think her household even owns GTA.


By the way, I never denied that plenty of adults play GTA, merely made a point about my own experience. Its certainly my impression that GTA has a very large audience of preteen boys, despite its rating. That in itself doesnt prove it "childish" or Civ2, The Sims, and most electronic games would be called "childish". But the fact that it has a T rating hardly proves it isnt childish.


Look, I read Harry Potter books and enjoy them immensely. They have great depth, and have insights and humour that you need to be an adult to appreciate. Im not going to deny that they were written for children, or that the majority of their readers are children, or began reading them as children.

As for childish games, not being violent, I dont get what you mean. Children, perhaps especially boys, love violence. Check out the history of cartoons, for example. Plenty of violence, plenty of childishness. The fact of a game being violent doesnt it make it less childish - except perhaps in the mind of a 12 year old boy , trying to prove his "grown upness" by playing a violent game, and avoiding all those "educational games" for "little kids" and "The Sims" for "Yecch,girls!".
If you mean that violent games arent supposed to be sold to children, thats correct, but we all know how widely ignored the ratings are by both parents and retailers. And I suspect the publishers count on that in their sales forecasts. Much like cigarette manufacturers, for example.