16-05-2004 07:39									#1
	Zelda (everyone vote please, fan or not) Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

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	16-05-2004 08:02									#2
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Just wondering... why?

	16-05-2004 08:08									#3
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Imran thinks that Zelda would sell better on the PS2 or Xbox than Gamecube.

	16-05-2004 08:12									#4
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King of the twisting words.. I said that it would sell well on the PS2 AND XBox. Combined probably just as well. So, basically double what it has now.... especially considering it's been on the Gamecube for a year already (and thus not the 'new' thing). If it was released for all systems simultaneously, then perhaps the PS2 version would outsell the Cube one, mostly due to market share.

You are the one saying it would hardly sell at all on both the PS2 and XBox combined.

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 16-05-2004 at 08:20

	16-05-2004 08:19									#5
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Erm. No...

My position was that the majority of people who would buy Zelda own a Gamecube, which you disagreed with, correct?

If this were false, as you asserted, the corollary would be that the majority of people who would buy Zelda do not own a Gamecube, and therefore it would sell better on the PS2 or Xbox than on the Gamecube...

	16-05-2004 08:23									#6
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quote: My position was that the majority of people who would buy Zelda own a Gamecube

This poll deals with Zelda: The Wind Waker. That's a game which is a year old (and not the 'new' thing). If the Wind Waker 2 came out today simultaneously for all systems, I'd say the majority of buyers would probably be on PS2 (market share).

The poll references the Wind Waker (1) and that's what I'm talking about.

And way to try to restate your position. Your position was that Zelda is not a mainstream game and thus wouldn't sell well to the mainstream gamer. You said the only reason it sells because of Nintendo fanboys who buy the Gamecube because of nostalgia for Mario and Zelda. That means that you believe those who do not own the Gamecube do NOT share that nostalgia and thus wouldn't purchase those games.

By your argument Zelda wouldn't even sell $1 million on the XBox and PS2 combined (it would sell much more than that).

	16-05-2004 08:25									#7
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This poll is caput! What if you two of thsoe systems, or all threee?

	16-05-2004 08:29									#8
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i loved the original zelda games back when i owned a nintendo system, if it came out on Xbox or ps2 i would buy it ...

	16-05-2004 08:31									#9
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Same here Rasputin... and that was my argument. People who own a XBox or PS2 for game variety (Gamecube doesn't have much), would welcome a Zelda game for their system.

	16-05-2004 08:33									#10
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About the only reason that I'd buy a Gamecube would be to play Zelda. That's not enough incentive to buy a gamecube, not at my current budget, perhaps not at any budget in the forseeable future (typically, if I've got $200 to waste, I'll either sock it away or blow it in Vegas, not spend it on a game system on which I only want to play one or two games).

	16-05-2004 08:36									#11
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nintendo always built the best adventure games, the mario series the zelda series and the spyro series..

all games that should be continued on the ps2 xbox..

(yes i know the alst spyro was on ps2 but it wasnt anywhere near as good as the others )

	16-05-2004 08:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And way to try to restate your position. Your position was that Zelda is not a mainstream game and thus wouldn't sell well to the mainstream gamer. You said the only reason it sells because of Nintendo fanboys who buy the Gamecube because of nostalgia for Mario and Zelda. That means that you believe those who do not own the Gamecube do NOT share that nostalgia and thus wouldn't purchase those games. By your argument Zelda wouldn't even sell $1 million on the XBox and PS2 combined (it would sell much more than that).

That's not my argument, which you should be smart enough to figure out. I was generalizing, saying why the MAJORITY would be on the Gamecube.

The majority of people who would buy Zelda own a Gamecube already, and the reason most people would buy Zelda is if they've played it before and want the nostalgia factor. The latter is not part of the former, just another argument.

I submit as evidence Soul Calibur II. Fighting games usually sell MUCH better on the PS2 and Xbox than Gamecube. But the Gamecube version had Link as its special character, and it sold more than the Xbox and PS2 versions.

I would expect the same -- but perhaps more dramatically -- if Zelda was released on all three platforms at the same time. Historically, statistics agree with me, using Soul Calibur II was a metric.

I'd be happy to hear about what you base your opinion on.

	16-05-2004 08:41									#13
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quote: I'd be happy to hear about what you base your opinion on.

The popularity of Zelda (which cannot be denied) and the high rating of Zelda games, combined with the fact that the Gamecube does not have much variety in games compared to other systems (which means most people would not get a Gamecube to play 1 game, no matter HOW good that game is). If the Gamecube had the same variety in games and same number of games as the other two, and the numbers were the same, then perhaps you'd be right. But you totally discount this main downside to buying the Gamecube, saying that people would buy the Cube if they wanted to play Zelda.

And the fact that you are the first person I've heard who said Zelda does not have mainstream appeal.

quote: I submit as evidence Soul Calibur II. Fighting games usually sell MUCH better on the PS2 and Xbox than Gamecube. But the Gamecube version had Link as its special character, and it sold more than the Xbox and PS2 versions.

Have you discounted the fact that PS2 and XBox have far more fighting games with which to divide the market, while the Gamecube doesn't? No, probably not.

	16-05-2004 08:41									#14
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This all goes back to Imran's comment that if Zelda was released on all the consoles last year, it would have been the #1 selling game of 2003.

It sold 3M on Gamecube, so it'd need to sell about 8-9M across Xbox and PS2 in a year to be #1. I really, really can never see that happening, since I think people on the PS2 & Xbox are more likely to buy something like GTA3 or Madden than Zelda.

	16-05-2004 08:43									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The popularity of Zelda (which cannot be denied)

Yes, it can.

The Sales for Wind Waker are historically underwhelming. Same size market share, Halo sold more.

3M copies of Zelda sold, 13M consoles --> 23% attach rate.
4.5M copies of Halo sold, 12.5M consoles --> 36% attach rate

quote: Have you discounted the fact that PS2 and XBox have far more fighting games with which to divide the market, while the Gamecube doesn't? No, probably not.

I have considered that, but it was outweighed by the consideration that the Gamecube controller is ****ing TERRIBLE for fighting games, and Soul Calibur II is by far the best fighting game on any platform...

	16-05-2004 08:49									#16
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quote: Yes, it can.

How many gamers have never heard of Zelda?

quote: Same size market share, Halo sold over twice as many.

Halo had been hyped up as the BEST FPS EVER! It was supposed to be revolutionary. I'd be surprised if it didn't sell insanely well.

quote: it was outweighed by the consideration that the Gamecube controller is ****ing TERRIBLE for fighting games, and Soul Calibur II is by far the best fighting game on any platform...

Even if the controller was terrible, you don't think any would play a fighting game? And even if SC2 is the best fighting game out there... did it sell more than the last Tekken? What about Dead or Alive?

	16-05-2004 08:52									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui How many gamers have never heard of Zelda?

Recognition is a different argument than asserting its popularity. Popularity for game sales is determined by...game sales.

quote: Halo had been hyped up as the BEST FPS EVER! It was supposed to be revolutionary. I'd be surprised if it didn't sell insanely well.

So? Zelda was hyped up just as much, and it was supposed to be the best Zelda ever...

quote: Even if the controller was terrible, you don't think any would play a fighting game?

Again, I'm not saying NO ONE will buy it...
I'm saying it would have probably sold <100,000 copies like every other fighting/sports game release on the Gamecube. Suddenly because it has Link, it hits over 1M...

quote: And even if SC2 is the best fighting game out there... did it sell more than the last Tekken? What about Dead or Alive?

I'm not sure about Tekken, I don't pay attention to it. DOA3 has sold more than SC2 (on Xbox), but and it's Xbox-only, but I don't consider it to be nearly as good as SC2. I'm not sure what your point is.

	16-05-2004 08:56									#18
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What's the point of this thread?

	16-05-2004 08:57									#19
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quote: Recognition is a different argument than asserting its popularity.

Fine... how many gamers hold Zelda to be a GOOD franchise.

quote: So? Zelda was hyped up just as much, and it was supposed to be the best Zelda ever...

Zelda was in no way hyped as much! What were you reading? The only thing I really heard about WW before release was the big deal made about cell-shading graphics.

quote: I'm not sure about Tekken, I don't pay attention to it. DOA3 has sold more than SC2, but and it's Xbox-only, but I don't consider it to be nearly as good as SC2. I'm not sure what your point is.

You are making it for me. Neither Tekken nor DoA were released on the Gamecube. In fact, many fighting games are never released on the 'Cube. So why wouldn't Cube owners flock to the BEST FIGHTING GAME? However, on other platforms there is competition, as you've noted sells more than the BEST!

Seems to be a good explination for why SC2 sold much more on the 'Cube. Best fighting game, with no competition, compared to loads of competition on other platforms.

--

Now, I'm going to sit back and keep watching the poll results go my way .

	16-05-2004 08:57									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Suddenly because it has Link, it hits over 1M...

It sold because it's an awesome game.

	16-05-2004 08:59									#21
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What's the point of this thread?

For me to pad my post count, really .

I realize I've been slacking and may be overtaken if I don't keep it up .

	16-05-2004 09:00									#22
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I can understand the desire for sweet, sweet +1s.

	16-05-2004 09:01									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Zelda was in no way hyped as much! What were you reading? The only thing I really heard about WW before release was the big deal made about cell-shading graphics.

You obviously didn't pay much attention to the 2002 E3, where it was asserted that Zelda and Mario were such amazing games, that they'd catapult the Gamecube ahead of Xbox into PS2 territory...it was to be the "killer app" for the Gamecube.

quote: You are making it for me. Neither Tekken nor DoA were released on the Gamecube. In fact, many fighting games are never released on the 'Cube. So why wouldn't Cube owners flock to the BEST FIGHTING GAME? However, on other platforms there is competition, as you've noted sells more than the BEST!

There is maybe 3 other fighting games on Xbox -- DOA3, some one I can't remember that sold like 20,000 copies, MK (which was also on Gamecube).

DOA3 got almost all of its sales during the Xbox launch, since it was the best looking game and almost a tech showcase. Its sales were nonexistant in the past 2 years, and Soul Calibur II was released this year.

DOA3 has nothing on Soul Calibur II, anyone will tell you that. Even the latest Mortal Kombat is arguably better, which the Gamecube has as well.

The Gamecube version sold a helluva lot because of Link. I happened to be in the IGN Cube forums during the time it was released, and that was the novelty of it all, since it'd been since N64 since they saw Link in 3D.

	16-05-2004 09:03									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It sold because it's an awesome game.

It sold disproportionately well on the Gamecube because of Link. Arguably, it's less of an awesome game on the Gamecube than the Xbox version, since Link is unbalanced and rather cheap (where's Zero ), and it's missing several buttons the Xbox/PS2 version have, making you use some awkward button combos when you shouldn't have to.

	16-05-2004 09:04									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Asher This all goes back to Imran's comment that if Zelda was released on all the consoles last year, it would have been the #1 selling game of 2003. It sold 3M on Gamecube, so it'd need to sell about 8-9M across Xbox and PS2 in a year to be #1. I really, really can never see that happening, since I think people on the PS2 & Xbox are more likely to buy something like GTA3 or Madden than Zelda.

not true at all, a lot fo old Nintendo people like myself never bough the last couple of nintnedos as they went down hill and the ps2 had more games to choose. but we still onged for the nintendo style games of old....

	16-05-2004 09:05									#26
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DOA3 is crap Asher. That's the reason it didn't sell on the X-Box. As for Mortal Kombat, it was a good game a decade ago.

	16-05-2004 09:06									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Asher since Link is unbalanced and rather cheap (where's Zero ),

You say that as if they didn't throw out the balance for all the system specific characters.

	16-05-2004 09:06									#28
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc DOA3 is crap Asher. That's the reason it didn't sell on the X-Box. As for Mortal Kombat, it was a good game a decade ago.

DOA3 sold well over 1M copies on Xbox, which is certainly considered selling.

You do realize you're making my point -- that the "no competition" factor for the Gamecube sales being higher than the Xbox is not really valid.

	16-05-2004 09:07									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Recognition is a different argument than asserting its popularity. Popularity for game sales is determined by...game sales.

cant compare sales on different systems...

	16-05-2004 09:07									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You say that as if they didn't throw out the balance for all the system specific characters.

Spawn is balanced -- he has powerful attacks, but way longer than normal vulnerability periods afterwards.