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Goethe80
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Leicester, UK
Jul 2003
time: 05:36
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Feudalism used to be one of the most under-used governments, but given the number of threads in which it has popped up as a choice for many players in the recent months, it is now time to turn to another neglected government!
Fascism
I've barely seen this government mentioned at all in the forum despite the fact that it has several interesting capabilities.
4MP limit
4/7/10 unit support
No war weariness
200% worker productivity
republic level corruption
pop-rush
On paper, it appears to be the perfect modern war government (even has a little bonus of automatically reducing the population of captured cities..). The unit support is the highest for a developed civ, possibly excluding a very well developed democracy, and since there's no real need to hoard gold, research should be quite decent. It would also seem that the c3c designers have deemed fascism to be one of the strongest governments by giving it a terrible cost - losing approximately 20% of your population upon conversion.
I've played it a few times, and I greatly prefer Fascism to the other modern war government of Communism because I absolutely detest the shared corruption of Communism (makes wonder creation slow). Not to mention the fact that they've 'fixed' the secret police hq 'get-around'.
The ability to pop-rush coupled with the 4MP limit is also very useful for newly captured cities as well as faraway frontier cities. Food is not affected by corruption, so once you have a granery up and running in those cities, you ought to get decent 'whip' production out of them.
Anyway, I would like to get your comments on the usability of fascism, particularly compared with the other 'war' governments such as Communism, Monarchy and Feudalism. I think Monarchy actually makes tough competition because of the ability to pay-rush, coupled with good unit support.
Last edited by Goethe80 on 18-05-2004 at 17:35
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Krill
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On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:36
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Trip, what would you do if it was a KAI, and would not accept peace, and was graddually taking over your empire? What then? Fascism is a niche government, similar to feudalism, but it does have it's uses.
If you are a small religious civ, change to fascism, build up your units, and then when you have enough, torch your opponents to the ground.
Works for me 
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Plotinus
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Facism? I haven't seen that in the game. It's FASCISM. FASCISM!! It has another S in the middle!! It is from FASCES, a bundle of rods used as a symbol of power by the Romans, and it has nothing to do with FACES. FASCISM! With an S!!
I'm going to go and have a calming mug of herbal tea now.
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AAHZ
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the biggest problem i find with fascism is that NO CULTURE is generated in newly captured cities until a POPULAR majority of your citizens has been dominant in the city. this greatly hurts culture for newly captured metropolis' and takes time to pop-rush everything until your citizens are the majority, not to mention the fact that you are killing off your work force, be they foreign nationals or not.
personally i stick with democracy the whole game AS SOON as i get it. i know how to get around war weariness, i usually have a HUGE army thanks to my early on monarchy, and my economy is, say, every 4 turns. bigger cities = more $.
Last edited by AAHZ on 17-05-2004 at 21:51
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Goethe80
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Leicester, UK
Jul 2003
time: 05:36
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Hmm... looks like nobody really likes Fascism. At present, I just play it for the massive tech support given (IIRC, my current game, about 25% of land area in a large 80% archi map, free unit support is something like 350).
I'm quite dubious about the claimed republic level corruption though. I've not gotten around to testing it yet (difficult and tedious since you can't just save/load at the end of anarchy to test because when you switch to Fascism, you lose a chunk of population), but it sure doesn't feel like it. If the corruption level is actually at republic levels, then I suppose Fascism is a government that allows you to maintain a massive war effort while still churning out modern wonders and maintaining your mega science cities (if you have those). In my present game, I'm running on Fascism, researching at 100% and have just SGL rushed the Internet (less useful, archi map, but rushed in my biggest island / palace core with 11 cities), and I'm still taking 6-7 turns to get techs like nuclear power. So I'm generally dubious about the republic level corruption, but of course, Fascism doesn't get the commerce bonus from Republic.
That said, I'm going to agree with all the people above who've mentioned that Communism is probably a much better war government as it is unlikely to have a 1-turn infantry/tank producing city (55-70 shields seems to be quite typical for me) at this point in the game, and the corruption hit you take in your core will still allow your 2-turn producers to carry on producing at that rate.
(on a completely unrelated note, I've only recently discovered that disbanding an army gives you 100 shields! - something to do with all those 4-archer armies I don't need anymore.... pentagon by 500BC )
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AAHZ
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anarchy time in C3C should be linked to the difficulty level you are playing on. kind of like the way it is set up for the AI. dont know the chart off the top of my head, but in effect longer times for levels like emperor and above, shorter times for regent and below, with monarch being like the MIDDLE. this is just a rough idea, but it would make more sence than having like 8-10 turn anarchy times on almost EVERY difficulty level. im just talking about more of a balance, like the AI anarchy times.
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Goethe80
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Leicester, UK
Jul 2003
time: 05:36
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This is weird, I'm threadjacking my own thread.....
I find anarchy (esp. for non-religious civs) extremely irritating as well, but look at the true cost of anarchy. I don't think it's so crippling that 2 switches is overwhelmingly painful.
A typical time for anarchy is somewhere around 7-8 turns. I try to enter anarchy after a decent number of my cities have just finished their builds (units, improvements, whatever). In addition, where possible, I try to do it when I'm drawing in GPT from the AI.
So each switch essentially costs me 1 (at most 1.25 techs), and lost unit/improvement production for 8 turns. While added together, it adds up to a colossal number of shields, no one is going to initiate anarchy while racing for an important wonder (ie. Leo or Smith), so the overall loss in shields is probably a couple of improvements and units. The actual loss is also somewhat mitigated by the fact that shields (unless producing wealth) aren't fungible, and if you do a little micromanagement on your specialists, coupled with GPT deals from the AI, you ought to get additional gold at the end of it all.
So, assuming that you're switching to a government that's more efficient for you (be it Feudalism for hardcore middle-age war, Democracy for that tech lead, Fascism for strange folk like me...), that 7-8 turn loss shouldn't be too painful. So long as you don't do strange things like get into anarchy in the middle of a golden age (which is why i REALLY dislike hoplites...).
Which probably explains why I value the religious trait more as a culture machine as opposed to a bonus for multiple government switching (besides, how many switches are you going to do anyway? despo-monarchy-feudalism-communism-democracy?... lol)
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Aramis
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Not where I was tomorrow, nor will be yesterday.
Dec 2002
time: 23:36
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Are you sure? It seems to me that if I choose to change the form of govt at the start of the turn (as a religious civ), then at the start of the next turn, anarchy is over and change is made. If I wait until after moving units or doing anything else, or wait until the end of the turn, then rel civ takes 1 full turn of anarchy, which is over at the start of the yet next turn.
But it's been awhile since I played as a rel civ. I must take another look.
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16-05-2004 15:27
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