22-05-2004 03:23									#91
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Damn! Aggy will be a cartoon in search of a page, then.

LMAO!!

The fun I miss during the week....

	22-05-2004 07:49									#92
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quote: Hint: it's not the "heritage"

That's rather openminded of you Skywalker.

	22-05-2004 07:50									#93
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http://www.canada.com/national/stor...b7-83e0c53058b8

Robert Fife
CanWest News Service

May 21, 2004

OTTAWA -- Prime Minister Paul Martin and the Liberal party are heading for the first minority government since 1979 in the expected June 28 election as a result of a late surge in Conservative support and a pervasive "mood of negativity" among voters, according to a new CanWest-Global News poll.

A Compas survey shows Stephen Harper's Conservatives are closing the gap with the Liberals and are now at 31 per cent of voter support compared to 39 per cent for the Martin-led government.

The national survey of 1,579 Canadians was conducted between May 15-19.

The poll has the NDP at 17 per cent of voter support and the Bloc Quebec at 11 per cent, although the separatist party has a huge lead over the Liberals in Quebec.

Compas president Conrad Winn said the Tories have risen from the mid-20 per cent range in recent polls because of an "atmosphere of frustration and desolation" among many Canadians, making it unlikely the Liberals can capture a fourth consecutive majority.

It would be the first minority Parliament since Joe Clark held power for a brief nine months in 1979.

The Conservatives have benefited enormously in the Liberal stronghold of Ontario from the fallout from Tuesday's provincial budget, where the new Liberal government ran a deficit and imposed higher taxes.

The Conservatives are now virtually neck-and-neck in Ontario at 39 per cent and 42 per cent for the Liberals. Only in Toronto are the Liberals holding a strong lead.

"In the electoral heartland of Ontario, the Liberals face new competition from the Conservatives that they have not experienced in many seasons," said Winn.

But the Liberals are in trouble in almost every region of the country except Atlantic Canada where they have 50-per-cent support compared to 26 for the Tories and 20 per cent for the NDP.

In Quebec, the poll shows the Liberals at 40 per cent to 43 per cent for the separatist Bloc, but Winn said those figures overstate Liberal support which is concentrated in heavily anglophone ridings in Montreal.

"In practice, the Liberals are set to lose massively to the Bloc in Quebec, do poorly in Saskatchewan-Manitoba, and be shut out of Alberta," he said. "The Liberals are also threatened in B.C., where public misgivings about the provincial Liberals could carry over to their federal cousins."

In B.C., the Tories are at 40 per cent support compared to 32 for the Liberals and 26 for the NDP. The Tories remain a powerhouse in Alberta with 57 per cent support compared to 27 for the Liberals and the NDP at 14 per cent.

In the Prairie provinces, the NDP are in a virtual dead heat at 32 per cent to 35 per cent for the Liberals, with the Tories at 27 per cent. Winn said a large plurality of Canadians believe they are worse off from four years ago and this mood of negativity may make the Liberals profoundly vulnerable to charges of corruption from the $250-million sponsorship scandal.

"By immense (76 per cent) majorities, Canadians believe the Liberals were corruptly helping their friends, Martin had to have known at the time, his record is not squeaky clean, and Adscam was not an honest mistake made in the course of trying to keep Quebec in Confederation," he said.

The spate of negative advertisements run by the Liberals has also backfired as they did in the last Ontario election, he said.

"The federal Liberal attack ads may be doing for the federal Conservatives what the Eves Conservative attack ads did for the McGuinty-led provincial Liberals in Ontario a few months ago," he noted.

Compounding the troubles for the Liberals is the fact governing parties always lose support over the course of a campaign when voters pay attention to criticism and policies offered by the opposition parties, he said.

In other warning signs, Winn said a majority of those polled believe the Liberals have a record of mis-spending while a large percentage think the government opened the door to terrorists and imposed taxes that are too high.

"To make matters worse for the Liberals, the public is not sure whether the election is premature," he said.

The Compas poll is accurate within 3.1 per cent 19 times out of 20.

	22-05-2004 08:29									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That's rather openminded of you Skywalker.

Yeah, pretty much. IMO the Religious Right is the worst thing that ever happened to the Republican Party and the US (and I doubt it's much better in other countries).

Considering that I'm an atheist, moderately pro-choice, and pro-gay marriage, I doubt I have much in common with the "Christian Heritage Party".

	22-05-2004 08:32									#95
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So basically you the type of idiot who makes assumptions about people you know nothing about. The Reagan would be displeased.

	22-05-2004 08:32									#96
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quote: and I doubt it's much better in other countries

Canada's much more left than the US. Ergo, it's important for balance to get some things from religous folks.

Secondly, you don't need to be religious and right wing. There are many honest religious folks who end up voting for the Republican party in the states because of the hostility of the Democrat party to any form of Christianity. I think rather than bemoaning these folks with a caricature, you should be actually go out and talk to some of these so-called 'religious right.'

	22-05-2004 08:34									#97
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quote: There are many honest religious folks who end up voting for the Republican party in the states because of the hostility of the Democrat party to any form of Christianity.

Which is why Kerry is completely pro-gay marriage, right?

Where did you get the idea that either of the major parties is "hostile" to Christianity?

	22-05-2004 08:38									#98
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quote: Which is why Kerry is completely pro-gay marriage, right?

He's such a waffler I don't know where he stands on anything. It would depend on who he happens to be talking to today.

quote: Where did you get the idea that either of the major parties is "hostile" to Christianity?

The democrats are not hostile of Christianity so long as Christianity is kept in a closet, out of the way. Their only objection is to those who actively practice their faith.

Go read something by Mario Cuomo, and you will see what I mean.

	22-05-2004 08:51									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Canada's much more left than the US. Ergo, it's important for balance to get some things from religous folks.

Religious freaks like the Christian Heritage do not balance things, they distort things.

The vast majority of Canadians believe in freedom of religion meaning people have a right to live their lives according to their individual religious beliefs.

The nutcases from the Christian Heritage believe they have the right to dictate everyone's lives. They want us to live by their religious rules.

	22-05-2004 08:54									#100
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* waits patiently for Ben Kenobi's reasoned response

	22-05-2004 09:00									#101
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Well, they do sound pretty whacko to me. I mean, they are campaigning for proportional representation. WTH do they think they're doing! Forcing their ideas of fair voting on the rest of us unsuspecting Canadians.

	22-05-2004 09:02									#102
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quote: Religious freaks like the Christian Heritage do not balance things, they distort things.

Distortion? Of course they 'distort' because they approach the world from a different viewpoint. The very fact that expressing a religious viewpoint gets labelled 'distortion' explains precisely why we need them here in Canada.

quote: The vast majority of Canadians believe in freedom of religion meaning people have a right to live their lives according to their individual religious beliefs.

No quarrel with you there.

quote: The nutcases from the Christian Heritage believe they have the right to dictate everyone's lives. They want us to live by their religious rules.

Do they now? I would ask for evidence that they say such a thing.

	22-05-2004 09:04									#103
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LMFAO @ NYE.

	22-05-2004 09:04									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi NEP anybody? I was unaware that Kiwis had particular fondness for PET.

Most people did. He was a well respected leader throughout the world. In fact almost everywhere except Western Canada and certain parts of Quebec.

	22-05-2004 09:06									#105
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Agathon:

Even in America?

	22-05-2004 09:08									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The democrats are not hostile of Christianity so long as Christianity is kept in a closet, out of the way. Their only objection is to those who actively practice their faith.

By which you mean, of course, those who don't quite draw the line between religion and politics...

Hmm, the Democrats are sounding better and better.

	22-05-2004 09:11									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Most people did. He was a well respected leader throughout the world. In fact almost everywhere except Western Canada and certain parts of Quebec.

Certain parts? You mean... like the ones he sicced the tanks on?

	22-05-2004 09:12									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Most people did. He was a well respected leader throughout the world. In fact almost everywhere except Western Canada and certain parts of Quebec.

Echoes of Thatcher.

	22-05-2004 09:26									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Do they now? I would ask for evidence that they say such a thing.

They believe that Canadian government should be based on biblical laws. That's their religious laws.

	22-05-2004 10:02									#110
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quote: those who don't quite draw the line between religion and politics...

Why should one set of beliefs be privileged over another? If a person is religious, he should also be able to express his convictions in politics.

If he's Catholic, he ought to be able to disapprove of certain things like contraception just like people are allowed to support contraception.

One man's beliefs are not going to set policy for an entire country, unless the people also agree with the idea. So what do you have to fear from the Christians?

	22-05-2004 10:04									#111
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quote: They believe that Canadian government should be based on biblical laws. That's their religious laws.

So? How are they going to force their laws on the people of Canada? They may want a biblically based Canada, but that doesn't mean that they can accomplish this without a mandate from the people.

If you disagree with them, that's fair enough. Don't vote for them, and don't support their policies. But at least give them credit for not giving up on Canada.

	22-05-2004 10:37									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So? How are they going to force their laws on the people of Canada? They may want a biblically based Canada, but that doesn't mean that they can accomplish this without a mandate from the people.

Yes, obviously they need to get elected to carry out their policies.

The point is that the CH are a lunatic fringe group whose idea of Canada is completely out of whack with the beliefs of most Canadians. Their attitudes do not add balance any more than the creation of a Canadian Fascist Party would add balance.

You claim it is important that they exist when their existance is meaningless. The vast majority do not want a biblically based government so the CH is just pissing into the wind.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi But at least give them credit for not giving up on Canada.

You got it completely wrong. The CH has given up on Canada.

It is turning its back on the Canada that says everyone is entitled to live their lives as they see fit. The Canada where people are not forced to conform. The Canada where just because I am not a Christian does not mean that I am a second-class citizen.

The CH are the types of people who want to return to "the good ol' days" that in reality were not that great. What they want is an imaginary Canada where everyone went to church on Sunday, where homosexuals stayed in the closet, where minorities kept quiet and Natives became "civilised Christians".

The CH doesn't recognise that Canada today is a great nation where people can be fundamentalist, bible thumping Christians or new age Wiccans. Canada is a nation where people are allowed to be individuals.

Edit: Although if you don't like hockey, then you ain't a true Canadian.

	22-05-2004 10:42									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why should one set of beliefs be privileged over another? If a person is religious, he should also be able to express his convictions in politics. If he's Catholic, he ought to be able to disapprove of certain things like contraception just like people are allowed to support contraception. One man's beliefs are not going to set policy for an entire country, unless the people also agree with the idea. So what do you have to fear from the Christians?

Reverse that, Ben. Assume that one day a majority of our country are Muslims. Do we want the Sharia as law?

Can you see how the rules of any one religion could choke in the throats of all who are not adherents?

Review the history of Germany, England, or even our very own Canada if you want to see why politics and religion should be seperate. That does not mean that religious people should not be in politics. It means that religion should not be the basis of any given public policy.

	22-05-2004 10:48									#114
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quote: whose idea of Canada is completely out of whack with the beliefs of most Canadians.

So, the only ones who should have a say are those who fit into the majority? Sounds awfully tolitarian to me.

quote: Their attitudes do not add balance any more than the creation of a Canadian Fascist Party would add balance.

There are plenty of people in Canada who agree with the Christian Heritage party. Ergo, the party adds balance since they provide a different perspective than the major parties.

Call me a crazy, but I would say the same for a Fascist party. Just because one disagrees with their sentiments does not mean that they have nothing to contribute. A blind horse can find water, and can often point out things that everyone else is unwilling to see. Remember the Emperor's clothes? We have a naked emperor, but everyone has to keep quiet to avoid offending him.

quote: You claim it is important that they exist when their existance is meaningless. The vast majority do not want a biblically based government so the CH is just pissing into the wind.

Just because one speaks for few does not mean that one speaks for none. It is the mark of a tolitarian government that denigrates the few to the benefit of the majority.

quote: It is turning its back on the Canada that says everyone is entitled to live their lives as they see fit.

So the Christian heritage party would make religion compulsory? I do not see that in any of their manifestos, and you have yet to provide any evidence of their policies.

quote: The Canada where just because I am not a Christian does not mean that I am a second-class citizen.

As opposed to a Canada where Christians are second-class citizens? We are already there, Tingkai. A party that advocates the restoration of this balance can hardly be faulted for their focus.

	22-05-2004 10:49									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why should one set of beliefs be privileged over another? If a person is religious, he should also be able to express his convictions in politics.

Where have I said otherwise?

However, being an atheist, I happen to disagree with any and all theological justifications for positions on certain issues.

quote: If he's Catholic, he ought to be able to disapprove of certain things like contraception just like people are allowed to support contraception.

And I ought to be able not to vote for him.

quote: One man's beliefs are not going to set policy for an entire country, unless the people also agree with the idea. So what do you have to fear from the Christians?

Policies to which I am diametrically opposed being implemented?

	22-05-2004 10:57									#116
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quote: Assume that one day a majority of our country are Muslims. Do we want the Sharia as law?

No, I would not. Neither would I want a policy of forced conscription that has happened in many states, and has forced Mennonites to leave for another country.

If the majority of the people vote for Sharia, than under what grounds can they be denied?

quote: Can you see how the rules of any one religion could choke in the throats of all who are not adherents?

Yes, I do. But it is not merely 'religion' that has forced these problems. Some of the most staunchly secular governments have faced similar problems. One need only look at the current policies of China and the Former Soviet Union towards religion to see this truth.

quote: Review the history of Germany, England, or even our very own Canada if you want to see why politics and religion should be seperate.

Actually, the only thing a seperation between the church and state entails, is the preventation from the establishment of any one church over another. It has nothing to do with religion informing public policy.

quote: It means that religion should not be the basis of any given public policy.

Disagree. It is possible for someone who is a believer to speak out on issues of public policy and to articulate how the policy ought to work in society without being immediately harassed for doing so. We ought not force the believer to separate 'religion' from secular causes.

	22-05-2004 11:00									#117
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quote: Policies to which I am diametrically opposed being implemented?

Then don't vote for these folks.

	22-05-2004 11:01									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, I would not. Neither would I want a policy of forced conscription that has happened in many states, and has forced Mennonites to leave for another country. If the majority of the people vote for Sharia, than under what grounds can they be denied?

How about the fact that it's tyranny of the majority?

The Jews were a minority in Nazi Germany.

quote: Disagree. It is possible for someone who is a believer to speak out on issues of public policy and to articulate how the policy ought to work in society without being immediately harassed for doing so. We ought not force the believer to separate 'religion' from secular causes.

Why not? We're the voters. Hell, you're SUPPOSED to "harass" people you disagree with.

	22-05-2004 11:01									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then don't vote for these folks.

That's my point, BK. That I find them immensely distasteful.

	22-05-2004 11:02									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai You claim it is important that they exist when their existance is meaningless. The vast majority do not want a biblically based government so the CH is just pissing into the wind. You got it completely wrong. The CH has given up on Canada. It is turning its back on the Canada that says everyone is entitled to live their lives as they see fit. The Canada where people are not forced to conform. The Canada where just because I am not a Christian does not mean that I am a second-class citizen. The CH are the types of people who want to return to "the good ol' days" that in reality were not that great. What they want is an imaginary Canada where everyone went to church on Sunday, where homosexuals stayed in the closet, where minorities kept quiet and Natives became "civilised Christians". The CH doesn't recognise that Canada today is a great nation where people can be fundamentalist, bible thumping Christians or new age Wiccans. Canada is a nation where people are allowed to be individuals. Edit: Although if you don't like hockey, then you ain't a true Canadian.

Their existence is meaningless? Given up on Canada? Forced to conform?

What are we to make of your venom towards people who exercise their freedom of conscience, their freedom of expression, and their political freedoms, not to mention their responsibility as citizens to get involved?

I know why it is important to keep government above the grasping hands of any given religion, but at the same time I question the Canadianess of suggesting that people shut up and sit quiet on the sidelines because their views may not be popular.

We need religious people to speak up and step forward. We need to address them as to why we believe their dogmatic views should not be the basis of policy. We should not abuse them and thereby drive them into a sullen resistence.