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ducki
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These are good ideas for the tutorial-based suggestion, but...
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, so let me reiterate that these are good ideas for scenarios that might help people learn something.
It's just that the more we talk about it, the less I personally like the idea. In general.
That's just me though. I don't like scenarios, for one. I like to build an empire, not take over someone else's and have to follow their orders.
I never really liked AoE or WoW, either, so that could be part of my dislike.
Another part may be the sheer volume of additional work this will require, from the scenario design to the actual creation of the scenario to the documentation of the scenario. Sure, someone could play a Regent level game with frequent saves and keep a turnlog, then when a "good" learning situation crops up, reload an old save, play up to a turning point and then document, distribute, and promote that.
But it's usefulness would be limited to Regent-level players - the Monarch and above crowd would gain little from playing that out - which is not a huge issue, but an awful lot of work for a level of player that is less present here than others.
On the other hand, you could hand-craft the scenario in the editor so as to have all difficulty levels available, but that seems like even more work than trusting to serendipity. And you still don't draw in folks like me who just don't like AoE/WoW-style scenarios - take over this empire and achieve goal X.
There seems to be a good deal of support for the idea, though, so I'm likely a minority voice. Aside from the support though, there's a lot of "someone could build a scenario" and not much "I could build a scenario". Not necessarily an indictment, I did the same with my idea, just a point I noticed.
If we want more members and publicity "soon", I don't know that a series of Training Scenarios will do the trick, for my own definition of "soon".
To end on a positive note, I'll reiterate again that the scenario ideas themselves seem like good ones and if done right might be a good learning tool.
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ducki
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Well, the only thing I really came up with so far was the one I posted above...
quote:
Come to think of it, maybe we don't need new games, but a new way of analyzing and showcasing what we've already got, which is some of the best strategic play I've seen. Some very esoteric, some so obvious that many don't think of it.
What we need is a Post-Game Wrap-up Show. Someone to comb through the DARs and glean the "good" stuff. Then, with links, compile a Highlights Reel with commentary of the high-points and low-points of the most recent game.
Publish this as a News Story on 'poly and publicize it. It would be news-y and pull some "late" players as well as interest folks in "what's next". It would be fun if the commentary was done in a theme, like a sportscaster or the excellent zoological storytelling seen in 501. And, it would have a very subtle draw to players that want to have some level of competition but not really the GOTM-level or HoF type of game play - folks LOVE to see their name in writing or hear it on the news or on TV. It would be subtle, but it would subconsciously say "Wouldn't you like to be featured in the next AU Post-game Wrap-up? Unless you play, you don't even have a shot, so come on, join in the fun!" |
A strat guide might be good, if an already beaten path.
The scenarios are - again, to me - not necessarily a bad idea, just a lot of work to pull in an unknown number of players. I'm looking at it as a coder, I think. Amount of work vs. benefit. "Benefit" is unknown. It could flop and draw no or very few new players or it could double or triple our numbers. Risk factor = high. And, again, there seems to be a lot of support for this.
Here's a question - of those that already are members, how likely do you think scenarios would have been to pull you into AU? How many would have diligently played through them in an effort to improve your game? I'm nolt suggesting anything, I really am curious. I seem to be one of the few that didn't like the conquests.
Anyway, maybe the second posting will draw some support or criticism of the post-game highlights newsreel type wrap-up thingy I mentioned. I'm not much of a creative writer, so maybe the risk factor on my idea is just as high as the tutorial scenarios idea. I dunno. Let's hear from some of you creative writers/compilation artists out there. I know you're here, I've read your DARs and know you can weave a fun story around dry facts.
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ducki
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Hmmm....
Thinking about "creative writing", maybe we could recruit some folks from the Stories forum if noone here feels like writing a wrap-up/highlights sort of thing. It might get some traffic from the Stories forum, as writers like to be read and will advertise to their existing circles. Just another thought, if we don't have anyone that wants to write something like that.
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Khannalxytys
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ps: A couple of thoughts on learning and Civ (games in general actually - it is somewhat big so please take a deep breath. Or rush to the end.)
About 5 years ago, I didn't know what was gaming. I started playing RtCW and did not know how to play it very well. I had a couple of friends who used to play fps games since 1996. They taught me how to play and soon after I became one of the top-notch players here in Brazil. How was that done? Simple, we hired a server, and came up with a couple of basic moves we needed for someone to play well (when not counting play hours, since theory differs from practice). Then, the veteran summoned up a couple of friends and started a clan. So he started teaching us how to do these things. We would go to the server and practice, how to throw the grenade up to that point. How to use a panzerfaust properly, how to move with your aim up, how to pay attention to things we wouldn't normally, etc.etc. After we got rather used to these things, he would always bring us public to practice what we learned from those crash small courses. After that, we'd go scrimming. Results: All those who were interested remained , 4 left. those who remained ended up being the best brazilian clan of RtCW. What i'm trying to say here is: I believe in order to achieve greatness in a game (or anything for that matter) there are steps, once you jump some step you get a vice. As Mr. vmxa1 says, it is hard to get "cured" from your vices. I believe it should begin by the beginning and that is: Learn all the basics (which isn't how to play, since all of us knew how to shoot, throw a grenade and walk, but we didn't know the real basics of how to do it PROPERLY) and then go test them in the field. I consider the ideas of mini-courses displaying one basic technique needed to play the game well a very good idea. The point that indicates that it wouldn't draw players to complete them is valid. But on the other hand, those who wish to learn for real, would certainly like to know how to do these things and there is no better place to learn than one devised for this purpose. And soon after testing them in a real game. Those who don't wish to learn for real, may play any game as interesting as it may be and they will not learn. They will be playing for kicks and not for absorbing that information. And that kind of player isn't going to help to advocate for the AU's effectiveness. A person who knows how to play (even if not well as is the case with all the prospective students) already knows if he is motivated to play this game or not. And turning a learning enviroment into something better looking is in my opinion trying to lure a horse into eating a mouse covered up with plants. He is going to smell it, bite it and throw up when it reaches the core. I propose (speaking as one of those students.) those small courses mentioned above to get the ideas. Then onto PBEM to put them to action. Then playing for ourselves with other people without connected to these courses to test if we can really use them when others aren't. That I think would do the trick.
my 2 cents,
M. Me
Last edited by Khannalxytys on 31-05-2004 at 05:32
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Khannalxytys
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Oh, just another idea: What do you think about PBEMs between the newbies and the vets? One vet takes 1-3 newbies and starts a pbem with them only that the vet has no fog of war over the newbie's territory and maybe by means of a mod he can actually set SIGNS on the map? In his turn, he checks all the other civs and puts signs over their territory to show something in particular..
e.g:
Two signs over two mountains in two islands where in the middle is a Canal. He types in the sign: Good place for fortresses with zone control units or something like that?
This way only 1 modding would do, since the many different specific cases would spring right in the middle of a game and he would be there to check it.
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22-05-2004 00:35
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