17-05-2004 18:00									#1
	Poll: Fate of the Empath Guild Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

As most of you know the Empath Guild is a very powerfull Project and it typicaly gets Disabled in most PBEM games as it was disabled in our last game.

I belive their is potential for it be incorporated in our games so long as we put it at an apropriate place in the Tec Tree (like like were doing with the CBA). So here is a Poll for what to do with it. At a higher position in the tec tree the Empath Guild will no longer be a guarantee to win the Govenorship. Likewise more infiltration and Pacts will be in effect lessening the important of infiltration.


Note: Results will be calculated as the lowest position in the tec tree that gets majority support. So if Genetics+Meditation beats Disable+Empathy then we Default to just using Meditation. So vote for the lowest position in the tec tree you would find acceptable.

If Centauri Meditation should end up wining then their is a sperate poll to deside if its project the Xeno-Empathy Dome should be switched with the Empath Guild so that each has only 1 project. So you need not worry about double projects making any particular tec overpowered.

Their will also be a Poll for Cost incresses as well, be shure to vote on these as well.

Last edited by Impaler[WrG] on 17-05-2004 at 18:19

	17-05-2004 18:52									#2
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I thought we weren't going to mod the hell out of the game.

	17-05-2004 19:04									#3
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I'm am like Maniac simply trying to see some of the games most agreesies errors (in the case of Empath guilds something that we had to cut completly out last game) corrected. I would hardly consider that Moding the Hell out of the game (too see that have a look at my IMPACX mod). If your against moding then vote to Enable the Empath Guild at Centauri Empathy as thats how it comes in the unaltered Alphax.

Its a Democracy game, let the people deside I say.

	17-05-2004 19:11									#4
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quote: If your against moding then vote to Enable the Empath Guild at Centauri Empathy as thats how it comes in the unaltered Alphax.

Did so.

-Jam

	17-05-2004 21:15									#5
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Again I would like to ask clarification if that involves everybody doing something with their alpha.txt.

Last edited by Snowflake on 17-05-2004 at 21:26

	17-05-2004 21:17									#6
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This isn't really an important issue to me, so I'll just follow Jamski's vote to prevent disagreeing with him too much.

I'd like to offer a few counterarguments though to those willing to disable or delay the Empath Guild.

Without the Empath Guild the research pathes are rather straightforward. Most factions rush to Industrial Automation, and thereafter to Environmental Economics. By keeping the Empath Guild and thus making Centauri Empathy more valuable we might see more varied research tactics and beelines in the game.

An argument stated by Googlie is that, since the Empath Guild provides all commlinks, an aspect of the game is removed: "exploring, contacting, exchanging (or not) others' commlink frequencies, and so on." However if buster and my suggestions are followed, the factions will start closer to each other than in the previous ACDG, meaning contact will be established sooner. This decreases the likelihood that the Empath Guild would give a faction lots of new commlinks. Also if we have normal unboosted starting positions, I guess research will be a bit slower and CentEmp will be discovered a bit later, also decreasing the probability that the Empath Guild will give lots of new frequencies.

	18-05-2004 03:09									#7
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Disabled. Imagine a large team like the Hive getting it in the next game. That would mean NO-ONE ever had the chance of wresting Governorship from them.

If we can't make things fairer, won't this game just end up like the last one?

	18-05-2004 03:15									#8
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Well, as I've said before, we should just make every unit 1-1-1.
I mean, imagine the following scenario:

A CyCon deathspherething stumbles upon a Hiverian crawler thats over a borehole. If we played by the normal rules, the CyConian deathspherething could easily wipe out the Hiverian crawler!
These rules are not fair to the Hiverian crawler, for the CyConian deathspherething will always win against crawlers. The crawler has no chance of defending itself!
However under the rule I proposed, the crawler would indeed have a chance at surviving the CyConian attack!

I also find it disturbing that some factions are given bonuses which other factions are not entitled to. For example? The Hive gets an industry bonus, but (and this is the really shocking part) the Spartans get an industry penalty! This is grossly unfair as it means that the Hive will probably be able to build units faster than the Spartans!
Instead, I propose that all factions become stripped of all bonuses.

It is only fair, is it not?

	18-05-2004 03:29									#9
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Well if you'd like, you could start a poll on this, after a discussion about it to gauge the general interest. However I daresay that poll will not be quite as close as this one is so far.

And since we have the EG disabled in the current game, why NOT keep it that way? Was there some great inconvenience or exploit that could be fixed if we included it this time around?

Modifications are not bad, which is something I sense from the arguments of some here. We don't want to go crazy as you are pointing out, Tass, and I think we are nowhere near that. We are discussing changing the pre-reqs for an SP and a Unit Chassis, and removing another SP (which is a commonly done thing, and we have just done it). Where are the vast and sweeping changes there? We are removing/delaying potential game-breakers. Is it fairer on ANY team to leave them in?

	18-05-2004 03:39									#10
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I'm not talking about specifics. However there seems to be a slight obsession in modifying the game so that every single thing is fair for everybody.
I'm saying thats impossible without durastic change. Sure, these are small things. But it just doesn't seem to be ending. Each time we poll on something, the general consensus from the "lets remove this" crowd seems to be "This is the last thing we'll change " but it isn't.

20 small things add up to 1 big thing

	18-05-2004 03:46									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Disabled. Imagine a large team like the Hive getting it in the next game. That would mean NO-ONE ever had the chance of wresting Governorship from them.

If the largest populated faction gets the Empath Guild, would there be much of a difference? They'd probably have gotten the governorship and free infiltrator info anyway.

If another faction gets the Empath Guild, you'll actually get two competing centres of powers. So a situation with the Empath Guild would then be more balanced than a situation without.

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I also find it disturbing that some factions are given bonuses which other factions are not entitled to. For example? The Hive gets an industry bonus, but (and this is the really shocking part) the Spartans get an industry penalty! This is grossly unfair as it means that the Hive will probably be able to build units faster than the Spartans!

Despite that "Standard" is the average map size, I say we should play on a Large or Huge map! If not factions will be placed closer to each other. THIS IS GROSSLY UNFAIR!!! As it means that if I don't build any defence forces, I might actually get attacked rather easily and quickly by the Spartans! Also I think we should play with boosted starting positions. Well erm... I must admit I can't really find any reasons why normal starting positions would be unfair, but I maintain they're unfair nonetheless!

Edit:

A few weeks back I posted a poll with the suggestion to boost "inherently weaker" factions such as the Spartans, Believers or Cult. However in the meanwhile I've taken over the view from others that there aren't any "inherently weak" factions, but instead that certain game settings favour certain strategies (and thus factions) over others. So if we'd be playing on a standard map with normal starting positions and everything else average, I wouldn't complain about possible unfairness towards Sparta, such as their Industry penalty. But as long as some people advocate things such as a huge map or boosted starting positions, I will continue to hammer that these favour build strategies and thus put Sparta and others too at a disadvantage compared to normal average settings.

	18-05-2004 03:49									#12
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Maniac

You know what I think is the most fair solution?
Delete Terranx.exe

I mean, if people are allowed to play SMACX, they might actually win over each other. This is completly unfair and I condemn it

	18-05-2004 04:03									#13
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You guys

Can't we just use the same rules that we're used to from PBEMs? They're judged ok for competitive play normally, without having to mod anything.

-Jam

	18-05-2004 04:19									#14
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The People's Democratic Revolutionary Party of the Morgan Empire call for an end to the era of technicalities and loopholes and instead call for an embracement of common sense!

	18-05-2004 05:10									#15
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I voted to disable the Empath

	18-05-2004 08:00									#16
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I have to say that tass is making a h**l of senses here.

	18-05-2004 13:34									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski You guys Can't we just use the same rules that we're used to from PBEMs? They're judged ok for competitive play normally, without having to mod anything. -Jam

Alrighty then. With Googlie's suggestion of disabling the Crossfire SPs, all we need do then is disable the EG, a common PBEM rule. I see nothing here that contradicts the rules for SMAC PBEMs, with the few differences that the Angels and Crossfire weaponry/improvements are available.

Maniac - the EG is far more likely to be built by the largest faction, or by an alliance of larger factions. This would put the Governorship compeletly out of reach of the other factions. The powerful get MORE powerful, and not even necessarily due to superior tactics - just a bit of starting luck can do that. If a lesser faction gets it, then that is less disruptive to the competition, but still in one easy swoop elevates that faction up beyond the reach of most others. In PBEMs information on your opponents is king. The faction with instant free infiltration data without having to deal with messy Probe assaults has a HUGE advantage.

	18-05-2004 16:12									#18
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Well, we don't even need to disable it. We can always just decide that we don't allow it to be built.

-Jam

	18-05-2004 16:31									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Well, we don't even need to disable it. We can always just decide that we don't allow it to be built. -Jam

True, either works. It shouldn't matter too much how we prevent its use, only that it is done so.

	18-05-2004 17:46									#20
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I see most are pro-no changing.

	18-05-2004 18:22									#21
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Had to bote bananna... I say we either disable it completely or leave it alone...

	18-05-2004 18:46									#22
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Yeah, just if we don't actually disable it, then the AI could build it.

a) This gives the AI another boost.
b) We can capture it off the AI, but that makes it a REALLY expensive SP

-Jam

	18-05-2004 18:47									#23
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The AI actually -builds- stuff in this game?
oh, and by the way...
1000th post!

	18-05-2004 21:09									#24
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Congrats King Enigma!

Youngsters grow up so quick these days. Must be some problems in the fourth dimension ...

	18-05-2004 22:23									#25
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Yes, it gives interdimensional personality fluctuations to most of those growing up...

Oh, and congrats as well.

	19-05-2004 02:59									#26
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Enigma: Are you sure the powers that be didn't chop up your posts into manageable segments to achieve the Bi9 1V1

But Congrats even so.

	19-05-2004 08:14									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski You guys Can't we just use the same rules that we're used to from PBEMs? They're judged ok for competitive play normally, without having to mod anything. -Jam

I agree with Jam

	19-05-2004 11:05									#28
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Voted disable, I just trust the more experienced PBEM guys that it may well be gross unbalancing...