14-07-2004 04:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Welcome to AU, Action. Looks like you've had a rollicking good time with this one! On FP placement, it is not as crucial as it was in PTW since the FP no longer provides a new set of city ranks. I think the best placement for long term benefit is about 3 cities away from your capital - close enough to benefit from the reduced distance corruption but not so far that this is nerfed by horrible rank corruption. This is somewhat dependent on map size and difficulty level. However, since it may take longer to build the FP in the perfect location because of existing waste in that city and so less usable shields (excluding the timely arrival of a leader to do the work for you), it is probably better to get it built as quickly as possible in a shield-rich city, which will enable your entire empire to reap the corruption reducing benefit of having a higher OCN, considerably sooner than you otherwise would. And of course, you have the option to move your Capital later by rebuilding the Palace in a more balanced location (or abandoning your capital and jumping your palace, if that takes your fancy!)

Again, welcome Action!!

Just to make you feel better... I'm supposed to be pretty good at this darn game, and I still don't feel like I know exactly what to do with the FP anymore!!

Fer instance, let's look at Aqualung's advice: Seems reasonable... but why 3 cities away from the capitol? NO new city ranks, right? Just increase in OCN... so why not build it in your strongest production non-capitol city, and then jump the capitol, either with an SGL or manually, to the best location possible down the road?

(That's what I did, btw)

	14-07-2004 05:45									#32
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Other consideration may be the map size and type. If I am on an island map, I may slap an FP down fairly close to the capitol.

If I am on a contient, I may elect to use a leader to jam it down in a new development to get it to be useful.

Just like many things in this game, it all depends. The key is it is not like Civ3 or PTW.

	14-07-2004 06:02									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Fer instance, let's look at Aqualung's advice: Seems reasonable... but why 3 cities away from the capitol? NO new city ranks, right? Just increase in OCN... so why not build it in your strongest production non-capitol city, and then jump the capitol, either with an SGL or manually, to the best location possible down the road? (That's what I did, btw)

Ummmm......isn't that what I suggested?

	14-07-2004 09:43									#34
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Yep, but why even the consideration of further away?

	14-07-2004 18:09									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Yep, but why even the consideration of further away?

I was giving my suggestion of where the optimal location would be for a FP, so as to get the benefit of reduced distance corruption without being blown out of the water by rank corruption. This remains more or less true, regardless of other factors such as ease of build. You may even be able to build it in such a place almost as quickly as a city next to your capital, with good production and an early courthouse. My suggestion of 3 cities away is a gut feel based on my experience....this will vary of course with map size.

The idea of a palace jump is not inconsistent with what I have said....and in such an event I would again advocate jumping the palace to about 3 cities away from your FP. The advantage of this strategy as you've pointed out is you are then able to better centre your capital. However it must also be remembered that in the absence of plentiful leaders, building a second palace is quite an investment in shields.

So just to be perfectly clear, yes I would often build the FP in my highest production non-capital city to get the earliest benefit. Wonderful if it can be perfectly placed, but often that's not practicable. A later palace build is a separate decision and can also be a good strategy if you're prepared to invest the shields and the added benefit is sufficient to justify the expenditure.

Cheers!

	17-07-2004 08:46									#36
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CONTACT WITH ALL

AU Mod, Emperor

875 BC: FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY build a third town. Sheesh.

750 BC: And a fourth.

310 BC: Up to six towns… and more importantly, I’ve got 6 ACs heading south to re-start some mayhem. It’s ugly though, with all of the local AI civs way larger than me and up into the Medieval Age.

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	17-07-2004 08:47									#37
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130 BC: I spent over a thousand years depleting Mongol forces in the central highlands.

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	17-07-2004 08:48									#38
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350 AD: In fact, I spent waaaaaay too long doing so, prolly the biggest mistake of my game. I was GL-hunting, of course, and finally got one, to the right of the gold in the middle of the pic. In a further sign of stupidity, I was not aggressively capturing Mongol cities, just picking off Archers and Spearmen in the jungle… so not only was I *not* damaging Temujin, I had to bring the GL all the way back north to my own city to convert to an Army, and then load it with two ACs and bring it all the way back south.

* Theseus is really friggin’ dumb sometimes.

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	17-07-2004 08:50									#39
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870 AD: It wasn’t until this much later ( /me smacks himself in the head with a large and particularly smelly trout) that I was ready to rumble, and happened to meet the western civs. I had used, what, the past thousand years poorly… the combination of early pillaging, and thus a poor early REX, had caused me to use this period for my build-out, and I had mistakenly not concurrently waged wars of aggression, but rather attrition. Lesson learned: KEEP PUSHING FORWARD, and Audacea Fortuna Juvat!!

I had been using the central jungles for oscillating wars against each of the local AI civs, and had unfortunately let the Mongols expand too successfully. The Hittites had re-expanded well… the western ruins were theirs, and they had previously owned two cities in the chokepoint towards the Vikings… Temujin was coming on very strong, but I had perceived to be over-extended (one of my new War Pillars).

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	17-07-2004 08:51									#40
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And another problem, looking at the western AI civs. India had the following GWs, and god knows what else:

Delhi: GLib, Oracle, Sistine
Bombay: Magellan
Madras: Copernicus, Knights Templar
Bangalore: Smith (under constr)

And I was still on Education!! And in Despotism!!

Interestingly, compared to some of the other DARs, China was already gone by now in my game.

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Last edited by Theseus on 20-07-2004 at 04:46

	20-07-2004 02:31									#41
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quote: Audacea Fortuna Juvat!!

Fortune favors the brave?

no, sorry, I think you got that confused with the RNG gods...You might just be lucky enough to get SP though...


And theseus, That is one weird strat you have got going there...lets see how it worked out...

	31-07-2004 19:41									#42
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825 BC researched Maths, and arranged peace, and map making for peach with the Hittites for Maths, 17 g and 4 gpt. Peace with the Vikings whose cheeky warrior is heading for my capital for maths, and literature and 10gpt in return. Just down Polytheism

800 BC it seems the Mongols and Vikings are at war.
750 The Mongols want peace... and will give 100 gold for it!
410BC well the REX has picked up. The Mongols are trimmed, and will likely be my first target, the Hittites being the continent leaders at present. I am researching Construction, hoping to trade it for Polytheism and Monarchy, change government and then hit the warpath. This means prioritising some towns: settlers, workers, warriors and Catapults. I was hoping for some horses too, but not yet...
390 BC, just notices a pack of Hittite arches heading up the peninsula... Must appease them, or give them a new target. A road to their Civ would allow trading of all the spare luxuries, which would be nice. A RoP turns them all around....
130 BC well the race to construction just got lost, still I have 1 turn to go, and the Vikings don’t have it yet but Phil and polytheism. The Hittites have Construction and Currency! I had been chasing the Statue of Zeus on a long shot, cause no one else had started it yet, but a cascade has meant the Mongols are going for it. Therefore my FP is not ideal, but I understand it is better to build it quick in a not ideal place early....
130 BC trade Construction for polytheism and 4p, but cant get monarchy. Still if lots have researched it, should be quick to do...
90 BC spotted land to the west with a suicide curragh. Will it make it....
50BC and it makes it, although it appears uninhabited.
280AD Rex maxed out for the moment - everyone else is in the next era, so the plan is to upgrade the warriors and hit the Mongols ASAP, and ocillate till I get all the required tech. A galley has found another island, but again it appears uninhabited.
390 BC We declare war on the Mongols, and take Darnahm
Stack of AC, but they retreat, and then a bunch of swordsman appear sitting on mountains

490 BC my SoD is destroy at Kark's door, by the Hittites, who have declared war. Make peace with the Mongols, and sign them up to an alliance against the Hittites. Things are not looking good

Between 530 and 550 Cuzco is briefly in the hands on the Hittites
570 BC declare peace with Hittites. I am trading luxuries now, and have found the Chinese

640BC, We finally discover Monarchy, and enter Anarchy
680 AD - Monarchy!

760 AD - finally get contact with everyone, I am behind in tech, but now I am in monarchy, at lease I am making progress....
850 AD 0kay Republic was a bad idea, but a short period or anarchy, and Ill be in it for the rest of the game - should pay of in the long term.

Hittites declare war on me, so I get on the diplomatic front, and get Vikings and Mongols signed up against them. I notice that the Indians have drawn in the Mongols against China, so I get them to pay me to do the same, and basically start a world war - no one is allowed to be at peace really, and I get rich in the process - haven’t done this before, but I have learnt something from AU 601 DARs... Which nets me 72 gpt - since no one will sell me tech, and I have to research it all my self, they might as well subsidise me. I hope that the constant war slows the tech pace down so I can use my heartland to catch up.

900 AD and the Hittites agree to Peace
910AD and the Vikings demand ivory, so we refuse and they declare war - this was a bad idea, cause they took the town on the horses.
930AD and now the Hittites are at war with us again, but the Mongols and Vikings are at peace

1040AD Well the Berserkers are landing. Can’t seem to stop them.

I am finally going to concede this game. It has been one of the most fun, but I reckon I lost it very early on. I thought it would be fun to pull it out of the bag, but I haven’t been able to. I am almost an era behind in tech now. Having read again a lot of advice here, I think I over irrigated early on, having been a great miner. I also got carried away pillaging at the expense of resources to building - treated it as a different game rather than a new strategy. I will return to this game at some point, whether I can face it straight away, well we will see.

This has been one of the most enjoyable games, because very few plans have worked out, and I have been forced to find alternatives. I guess I am not nearly as good as I thought I was, once the game strays from my preferred way of playing.

A final image, showing the Vikings, who have been making progress from the south, the north, and now the middle. Combined with the Hittities, just too much.

	31-07-2004 21:13									#43
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Glad you had some fun, to bad we can't see the pix.

	31-07-2004 22:23									#44
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Are they not loading? - they seem fine from here.

	01-08-2004 00:06									#45
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I can't see them either. Great attitude, btw!!

	01-08-2004 00:42									#46
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I have tried attaching the file now

it is 800 x 600, which I think is the correct size?

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	01-08-2004 03:34									#47
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I see you have most of your grassland, and shielded grasslands irrigated. You should mine them instead.

	01-08-2004 14:54									#48
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Thanks for the advice, I was not able to produce enough in this game, for a war or builder strategy.

I have been rereading the strat guides and DARs: I had misunderstood the food / production priority for the early stages, and come away with the impression it was as simple as food=good. This does not matter so much on a map with an easier start, because whilst it hinders the early game, it works well with cities and clearly is great after steam and RR. I have been able to pull back into contention during the later eras once the towns went to cities, and not noticed the extent to which I had hindered myself.

This map has exposed this little weakness as well as many others, as it is critical to get the early game right. I have found this course to be concerned with much more than just pillaging; if I dont manage the ancient era well, I will be too far behind in the later stages game.

	01-08-2004 20:04									#49
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quote: Originally posted by The pirate I have found this course to be concerned with much more than just pillaging; if I dont manage the ancient era well, I will be too far behind in the later stages game.

Good!! With insight, understanding.

This is the point that Nathan made in the very first DAR... this was a MUCH harder game/course than most anticipated, especially if one tried to stay with the theme.