18-05-2004 01:49									#1
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Hello,

I have read many posts saying that the forbidden palace does not have as much of an effect as it used to. Does it still make a ring of productive cities around it? Or does it only decrease rank corruption? Is it worth it to take 100 turns to build it in some faraway town to help that area, or is it more worthwhile to build it in 10 turns right next to your existing palace?

Thank you
Jerh9e1k5

	18-05-2004 02:44									#2
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Build it early in one of your high production cities. Placement doesn't matter that much.

	18-05-2004 04:36									#3
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So it does not change corruption on the area around it? Disgusting...

	18-05-2004 05:38									#4
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It changes "distance to capital" corruption; before you have the FP, the distance factor is simply the distance to your capital; with the FP, the distance factor will depend on either the distance to your capital or the distance to your FP, whichever is shorter.

However, it does not effect City Rank (a factor in Optimal City Number corruption), which it does in Vanilla and PTW. (In fact, it was bugged in that respect.) It does increase the Optimal City Number more than it did in PTW, which is another factor in OCN corruption.

	18-05-2004 06:19									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep It changes "distance to capital" corruption; before you have the FP, the distance factor is simply the distance to your capital; with the FP, the distance factor will depend on either the distance to your capital or the distance to your FP, whichever is shorter.

Pretty sure this is not so - none of the cities located close to city with FP have a corruption level anywhere near the low corruption of the cities close to my real capitol.
City with FP itself have almost no corruption though.

	18-05-2004 06:24									#6
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quote: However, it does not effect City Rank (a factor in Optimal City Number corruption), which it does in Vanilla and PTW. (In fact, it was bugged in that respect.) It does increase the Optimal City Number more than it did in PTW, which is another factor in OCN corruption.

This would mean that it does make a new ring of cities with low corruption. Can somebody please clarify? Is it that it does make a ring but the amount of time it takes to make it farther away is not worth it?

Thank you
Jerh9e1k5

	18-05-2004 06:28									#7
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As I said, it does not affect City Ranks, which is a crucial part of OCN corruption. Indeed, later in the game, when advanced governments reduce distance corruption, and your empire has a lot of cities (increasing OCN corruption), OCN corruption becomes a bigger problem than distance corruption for many of your cities.

I highly recommend Alexman's Everything about Corruption: C3C Edition thread.

BTW, on the city with the FP: Yes, the FP lowers maximum corruption for its city by 70% to 20% before courthouse or police station. (Default in a FP-less, courthouse-less, police station-less city is 90%.)

Edit: Crosspost. Jerh9e1k5, basically you have two main factors in corruption: a straight distance-to-nearest-corruption-center factor, and a factor that is influenced by A) city rank and B) your empire's OCN. OCN depends on world size and difficulty level, and can be further modified by other things such as the FP being built. (Check the thread linked above for the full details, Alexman is the expert on corruption.) City Ranks are handed out in order of which cities are closest to the capital; the more cities that are closer than City X, the higher the rank of City X goes, and the higher the Rank, the higher the OCN corruption. In Vanilla and PTW, the FP formed its own circle of city ranks. (Better, in fact; it was bugged and gave all cities closer to it than the palace Rank 1.) In C3C, only the palace matters for city ranks.

So, while the FP will combat distance corruption in the cities surrounding it, it will not effect those cities' ranks. Hence, higher corruption in the FP core than the palace core.

Last edited by Kloreep on 18-05-2004 at 06:34

	18-05-2004 21:38									#8
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One scenario under which I have found it is good to still construct your FP far from your palace is if land is limited on your home continent/island (such as with an archiapelago map).

Since the FP still doubles your OCN and becomes a new centrepoint for distance corruption, you can still create a second core of low-corruption cities far away from your palace if your main core around your palace doesn't have very many cities compared to the OCN for the map.

Other than that situation, however, I agree that it's best to now found your FP relatively close to home... I would recommend still doing it midrange distance from your palace, however, as it still at least reduces distance corruption in the area directly around it.

	20-05-2004 09:54									#9
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Everytime I read about the FP I get even more confused. Seems like a case of someone making the issue more difficult than it needs to be.

	21-05-2004 02:40									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Everytime I read about the FP I get even more confused. Seems like a case of someone making the issue more difficult than it needs to be.

Heh. I think even alexman would agree with this assessment.

	23-05-2004 00:35									#11
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Another popular option in this case, particlarly if the quality of the other landmass is better is build the FP in the center city of your exisitng land mass and then relocate your Palace to the center of the new landmass.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos One scenario under which I have found it is good to still construct your FP far from your palace is if land is limited on your home continent/island (such as with an archiapelago map). Since the FP still doubles your OCN and becomes a new centrepoint for distance corruption, you can still create a second core of low-corruption cities far away from your palace if your main core around your palace doesn't have very many cities compared to the OCN for the map. Other than that situation, however, I agree that it's best to now found your FP relatively close to home... I would recommend still doing it midrange distance from your palace, however, as it still at least reduces distance corruption in the area directly around it.

	23-05-2004 09:04									#12
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I never moved my palace. I feel like it would take the focus out of my core cities.

	23-05-2004 14:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 I never moved my palace. I feel like it would take the focus out of my core cities.

If your palace core is reasonably well developed, building your FP next door and then moving your palace to a reasonably undeveloped group of cities will hasten your overall economic development. If done at the right time, it will not have any appreciable negative impact on your economy, and will speed up production of improvements where they are needed.

	23-05-2004 14:42									#14
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Machiavelli recommended something similar to that in "The Prince".

	24-05-2004 18:24									#15
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If you have a relatively large landmass for your empire, I'd recommend building the FP early a few cities away from your capital. I dunno if I agree with Aeson about building it ASAP right next door (unless you're planning a palace jump) because the distance corruption does matter too.

I tend to use CxxxC spacing, and my FP's lately have been in the third city out from my capital... so let's say 10-12 tiles from my palace. This is on a standard map.

edit: if I'm remembering the map right, in my current game the FP is 9.5 tiles from the palace, as the corruption crow files. Maybe 10.5. In any case, that's pretty close. Far closer than I would have accepted in PTW.

If you have an island home, then building the FP far away on another island can work nicely. So long as the cities around the FP don't have very high rank corruption, the area will be productive.

The problem is when you try the old PTW placement, going for the "barbell" empire. If there are too many cities between the palace and the FP, the cities around the FP will still be super corrupt due to rank corruption.

Short version: Oval empire, instead of Barbell. Build it closer than you would have in PTW. The sooner it's up, the better. In Conquests more than in PTW, waiting for a "perfect" spot is a bad idea. In Conquests, there really isn't a perfect spot.

-Arrian

	24-05-2004 18:34									#16
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If you want an example, this is my present game (I'm playing it now)

Here is a pic.

This was my first real try at attacking the AI on emperor, and it seems to be going well (two sword armies, an SGL from philo, used on the pyramids) and waaay to many cities to control.

I'm 3/4 the way through the middle ages, and I will change to communism.

On the FP

the land surrounding it is OK, but with few hills there will not be any 1-turn tank producing cities (unless I go to metroes, but will be a waste of land). So I'm going to have a about forty 2~4 turn tank producers by the time I hit motorized transport

If I even get there

Attachment: 24.05.04 fp french, 610 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

Last edited by Krill on 24-05-2004 at 19:40

	24-05-2004 18:59									#17
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DP

Last edited by Krill on 24-05-2004 at 19:39

	24-05-2004 20:12									#18
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Just to clarify my earlier post, I subscribe to Arrian's thinking that the best FP location is probably your 3rd ring of cities from the Palace (though partly dependent on map size and difficulty level). This will likely be the most effectived location, since you minimise distance corruption and rank corruption at that location should still be manageable. Because of existing corruption however, it will almost certainly take longer to build unless you're lucky enough to have a spare Leader lying around.

I'm not particularly a proponent of the palace jump idea, but it is true that building your FP next to your capital will generally allow earlier completion and hence a quicker drop in overall corruption in your empire, and for longer term benefits of lower distance corruption in a greater number of cities you then really need to move your palace, again probably to the 3rd ring of cities from your FP.

It's a trade-off really.

My understanding of corruption under communism is that the FP location is totally irrelevant, since distance corruption is communal and the FP does not affect individual city ranks.

	24-05-2004 20:18									#19
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Yes, but any gov change depends on how the wars finnish: I could break through the aztecs easily, and a change would slow me down, or I might decide to finish the game with a space ship. I might even decide to change to fascism (for the hell of it). In this case I will disband several cities so I can get a few (about a dozen) metropolises, and then the distance corruption will be affected.

If you check my save I'm buiding the heroic epic and I could change that to the FP.

So basically, I'm hedging my bets

EDIT: I would, of course, move the secret police to a more sutable position, such as Orleans