19-05-2004 06:46									#1
	Planning our war Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I am trying to figure out different ways of attacking CDG. This place is to discuss our plans. I am working from a city planning perspective, as I will leave actual troop movements up to the war accadamy folks.

Best case scenario I have come up with (using neither heavy military or heavy growth) is we have a force of 10 swords, 4 hoplites, and we have a core of 7 cities and 6 workers. Most of these cities have no improvements, and only 1 regular warrior to protect them, with 3 hoplites also on guard duity in our larger/more vulnurable cities. The city near the iron is running around 65% corruption (in my model) so is almost useless except for the fact that it is built on top of the iron (to connect in time, I had to do that). If we go for less REX, we can have a force of 25 swords with the iron connected by a colony, not a city in that area. We will only have 5 cities. In both cases, most units are regular, with the vets being mostly hoplites.

We will either need to severly cut our science rate to start taking in cash for warrior - sword upgrade, or we have to connect our Iron soon to start building actual swords. If we switch to 10% research, on turn 41 we will be taking in 8 gpt (this is just before city #3, so it will go up a bit). We are researching math at 80%, gaining nothing (0gpt), we have 15 gold in the bank. It takes 40 gold (IIRC) to upgrade one warrior to one sword.

Another option is to connect the horses (which is much closser) and build a horse force.

4th option is to go for a archer rush. I have not simmed this, but looking at the sword option, I am thinking that this may be a good way to go. No need to upgrade. Costs less shields to produce. Is a good defender behind hoplites. Will someone make a battle sim and see what is what. Just looking at what I did, we can have a force of 20 archers and 4 hoplites easily in time, WITHOUT sacrificing our science.

What size force do we expect to need to defeat CDG? 5 swords and 3 hoplites (probably good for 2 cities, with PAL taking out their other 2), 15 swords and 5 hoplites (enough to probably take them all out by ourselves), 25 swords - to scare the crap out of PAL, and double cross them if we choose to do so.

What size force do we want to scare off PAL to keep them from double crossing us?

Do we bring along hoplites? Do we try for an early GA? If so, what are our GA objectives (Finish Zeus, get a jump on lighthouse, and build as many harbors, grainaries, courthouses and markets as possible are what I lean towards, but we need to discuss what we are actually looking to accomplish - as we can build a huge army at such a time, and can possibly double cross PAL if we decide to go for broke).

I assume we will be looking to start war on or around turn 85. We are on turn 42. We need to get going on answering these questions so we can plan this out right. Please folks, what is your opinion.

	19-05-2004 08:31									#2
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Personally, I'd like to keep PAL's interaction in the war limited. CDG is not likely to have colonized very far north by the time war erupts, and I for one do not want PAL to have a foothold that far south.

The major debate from the military side is horsemen vs swordsmen, speed vs strength.

We have both horses and iron nearby, but the horses are far closer. Also, in order to get either resource, we have to expand west, to crappier land, wasting valuable population and production settling land that won't pay off for a long time. Unless we persue some sort of colony system, which would be subject to barbarian attacks and pillaging, we would have to send one settler to claim the horse, and another to claim the iron, if we want to maintain a cohesive empire.

This would seem to lend credit to the horsemen route. Since we are also getting the Statue of Zeus, Horsemen would mix in fairly well to our already fast-moving force. However, I doubt we will have the SoZ by the time the war begins, so this is something of a moot point. The other benefit to building horsemen now is that we are guaranteed horses and iron, meaning those horsemen will eventually become knights, if the game gets that far.

However, stack of Swordsmen and Hoplites is quite a force to be reckoned with. Although slow moving, there is little an enemy can do to stop such a stack. If the stack can utilize defensive terrain, the Hoplites can be defending at 4.5 or even 6 (hills, mountains respectively). The power of the Swordsman's 3 attack will definately make quick work of what little units CDG will have. Since both Hoplites and Swordsmen are slow movers, they are a natural fit.

The iron is at least 2 cities away from our current core. That is a substantial investment of time and resources. It might be worth it to claim the horses via a city, and then set up a colony on the iron, with a Hoplite guarding it from barbarians. I would personally prefer the Swordsman/Hoplite stack, but I realize it is a large drain to secure that iron early on. I would much rather spend those time and resources expanding eastward, and northward. Hooking up the iron is a discussion in and of itself, and we should certainly discuss it further.

In the event that we decide to amass a horse force, we could still send Hoplites in advance, and leave the horses to catch up later.

	19-05-2004 09:07									#3
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I agree with uber here on his points. We definetly need to take all the CDG land we can by ourselves, so we won't have to deal with PAL too much during the aftermath (we'd have a good claim to most, if not all, of their land, both by proximity to us and because we'd done more of the work). Definetly, the stronger force we can muster, and the less we rely on PAL's help, the better.

Swords are a must. There's nothing like the brutal crush of a combined sword/hoplite stack offensive. Anything else is weak defensively, and would require extra hopilite defense.

As per the timetable, we need to talk to PAL. IIRC, F-P said something about 50 turns in the last chat, though I'm not completely sure. We definetly need to coordinate with them.

	19-05-2004 19:31									#4
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yes, they were 50 turns

	19-05-2004 21:16									#5
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing It takes 40 gold (IIRC) to upgrade one warrior to one sword.

It is actually 60 in C3C.

quote: 4th option is to go for a archer rush. I have not simmed this, but looking at the sword option, I am thinking that this may be a good way to go. No need to upgrade. Costs less shields to produce. Is a good defender behind hoplites. Will someone make a battle sim and see what is what. Just looking at what I did, we can have a force of 20 archers and 4 hoplites easily in time, WITHOUT sacrificing our science.

The high upgrade cost of warriors makes me think that the 4th option is much more realistic. I also like the fact that the archers can be used for defence. Archers and Hoplites are a nice mix.

Not sure about your other points yet. I need to digest it.

	19-05-2004 21:29									#6
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To be honest, I've never tried an archer rush in C3C. The new "0-range bombard" does seem to be a nice addition to a Hoplite's natural defensive capabilities. :hrmm:

if we started pumping out tons of archers, we wouldn't need to immediately hook up those horses or iron, freeing up settlers for the northwest. this would also lead to a more developed road network to our enemy, as well as send a message to PAL that "this land here is ours".

I will run some archer battle tests in the near future. A lot of my friends are just getting home form college and it's time to party around here

	19-05-2004 21:48									#7
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If we go with archers, we'd be wise to throw in catapults too. The archers will need the help.

For that reason, I would strongly recommend that we include a few swords, even if we go with primarily archers. We may come up against a heavily fortified position in the end and need the extra killing power.

However, the archers should be enough to win most battles.

One more note, if they attack our Hoplites, our GA will start during this war. We need to keep that in mind. Frankly, it's not a bad time for it. We'll need that boost of production to bring us on-par with PAL and to quickly settle and develop our new territory.

--Togas

	19-05-2004 21:55									#8
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Archers vs Fortified Spears in Minnisota (which is on a hill) would not make for a pretty picture.

I would think that the Archers would be in our SoD to help deter and attack against it. But then Cats would do the same and would still be able to be used offensively. This would mean that our SoD would have Hops, Cats and Swords.

In the end, it means that I don't think that we can be ready in 50 turns. We need more time.

Also, I don't think we need to worry to much about how involved PAL is in the war. If they take a city, they won't keep it past the war. Too Corrupt. Plus, it would be WAY beyond their border agreement with us. Which I think we need to begin discussing with them (although it would seem difficult to do as they do not have our lands explored and we do not have their lands explored).

	19-05-2004 22:16									#9
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Actually, as long as we are assured PAL and us make it to the final game I don't see any concern with letting PAL take land. WE AREN'T PLAYING THIS GAME TO WIN. We are simply playing to qualify. If we can build an image in the mind of PAL that we are a "subserviant" type of team and they go into the next game thinking we will do whatever they need us too, oh well. That's their bad for making that assumption.

	20-05-2004 02:00									#10
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I agree with Don, don't worry about the land; if they're truly as invested in this alliance as we are, we will see an equitable split of land, which would include us getting former CDG territory. Get PAL as involved as they are willing; it only hurts their currently-superior economy to do so. We should certainly pull our own weight, but any help from PAL should be welcome.

Personally, I lean toward using Horses, as A) this will delay our GA if we can keep the Hoplites from attack and B) Horses upgrade all the way to Cavalry. However, that's because A) I have a thing against despotic GAs and B) I look at the near-worst-case scenario of the French and Germans allying, in which case we may be going to war again, with Knights or with Cav.

	20-05-2004 05:45									#11
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What about a mixture of archers, horseman, and catapults?

	20-05-2004 07:02									#12
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we gain republic prior to the war kloreep, so no need to worry about a despotic ga....

I am leaning towards a heavy archer, with a couple of cats and swords to do the job on those tough nuts.

also, I would like us to CAPTURE, not destroy them. horses are better for this as they dont have time to pop rush so they may be size 2....

	20-05-2004 07:52									#13
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing we gain republic prior to the war kloreep, so no need to worry about a despotic ga....

you've accounted for 5-8 turns of anarchy then?

	20-05-2004 09:14									#14
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Another question - are we sure this is a war we can fight in a republic without incurring any significant WW? Could we finish in, what is it, 40 turns, before we feel any negative happiness effects? CDG's growth prior to attack would be a major factor in this.

	20-05-2004 19:42									#15
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I thought there is no WW in games by e-mail. Or maybe is it much lower?

	20-05-2004 22:48									#16
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quote: Originally posted by ormuzd I thought there is no WW in games by e-mail. Or maybe is it much lower?

where did you hear this? do you have any sources?

this could change A LOT OF THINGS, but i doubt it's true somehow

	21-05-2004 01:38									#17
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in the few wars I had in my games by e-mail I had never expirienced war weariness. All of them are PtW and the government was everytime republic/democracy

	21-05-2004 01:42									#18
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There was a patch with PTW that removed WW from PBEM and MP games as they tended to be highly aggressive. However, the last patch for PTW had WW reinstated.

	21-05-2004 19:32									#19
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thanks for the clarification

	21-05-2004 21:31									#20
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Should we set up a poll for this?

	21-05-2004 21:40									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal There was a patch with PTW that removed WW from PBEM and MP games as they tended to be highly aggressive. However, the last patch for PTW had WW reinstated.

sweet christ! i thought that was only for tournament mode!

	23-05-2004 00:11									#22
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Um, In Conquests, Archers aqainst fortified Spear Men even with bombardment are not a pretty sight unless you have a 2:1 or better advantage to afford the loses.

Horsemen fair much better, probably due to the retreat ability. 3:2 seems to work well against Spear Men.

I actually was in a map setup that cried out for an ancient era war a couple weeks ago and noted how much better my Horsemen attacked his Spears than his Archers attacked my Spears.

	23-05-2004 00:12									#23
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Um, In Conquests, Archers aqainst fortified Spear Men even with bombardment are not a pretty sight unless you have a 2:1 or better advantage to afford the loses. (light terriagn & no walls) Horsemen fair much better, probably due to the retreat ability. 3:2 seems to work well against Spear Men. (light terriagn & no walls) I actually was in a map setup that cried out for an ancient era war a couple weeks ago and noted how much better my Horsemen attacked his Spears than his Archers attacked my Spears.

	23-05-2004 03:35									#24
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Yes, but please also consider our time constraints.

At their current growth, they will probably have 5 cities. we will also have 5-7. They are militeristic, so thay may have barracks, and are more likely to have vet units. They are not great stratagists, so I expect them to be fairly disorganized. They will probably have 1-2 spear and 1-2 archers per city, along with whatever warrior scouts that made it back. They will probably stop producing warriors as they do not appear to have iron (we appear to be the only one on this landmass with iron). They do have horses, so thay may have some fast movers. Knowing their capabilities and history as a team, they will still be in REX mode and just in initial planning stages of war when we attack.

Our benifits are we have far better planning. We have better resources (iron) available as appropriate, but it will cut out another of our better resources (research) if we want to do the upgrade path.

Thus, a combined armes force looks best to me. Lots of archers, which will be acceptable backups in our cities for hoplites after the war. A few swords (mostly upgraded warriors - at 60 gold each however, we will have to cut research) to batter down heavily defended centers, a few cats, to help out the swords, and a few horses, to catch anybody that is in the open.

I am leaning towards archer heavy simple because we can start construction NOW. So what if it costs us 2 archers for each and every spear, we will have some help from PAL, and we can replace our losses with new builds as necessary.