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Do you support taxing the rich to give tax breaks to the poor and middle class? (Time out:0 days after 20-05-2004, 12:26)
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MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 14:44 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue
Well can I class myself as involuntarily unemployed because I can't get that £30k a year job I want?


That's why I mentioned the temp jobs, it's amazing how hard it is to get a bad job when you have good experience and qualifications. They know you'll leave the moment something good comes up.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 14:50
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That's surprising for temporary positions, though. I'll see what difficulty I have this summer, as I'm aiming to work for a few months while living at home and searching for a graduate position anywhere in the country.

Still I suppose it doesn't really make sense to distinguish between voluntary and involuntary as if it were black-and-white.

You can make models to show that if you take the labour force as a whole, it voluntarily chooses a level of unemployment, or something like that (still revising )..

MikeH is offline MikeH
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Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 15:03 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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It is. There are an abundance of temps in Reading though. My Dad struggles because of his age.

I guess voluntary vs involuntary in an economic sense doesn't count individuals. There'll always be people who are unemployed and between jobs etc.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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May 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue
Well Mike, I expect to be writing an exam answer in 4 hours time about how there is no involuntary unemployment


You mean like getting fired and stuff?

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
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Sep 2002
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  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:46
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quote:
Instead you sit in your trailers,

It's a mobile home.

Sava is offline Sava
King
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Mar 2001
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 18:22
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This isn't income distribution... it's simply taxing the rich more than the poor.

It's called progressive taxation Dissident... it's NOT income distribution.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 18:25 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
Yes it has come to American shores. Specifically New Jersey.

The governor wants to increase taxes on those who make over $500,000 a year and send this money for property tax breaks for the rest of the population.



I try to sympathize with the poor CEO who has to get by in life on only $800,000 a year, but for some callous reason, I just can't.

Paddy the Scot is offline Paddy the Scot

Prince
Hordeland
Mar 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 18:42 Visit Paddy the Scot<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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tax them yes, and then use the money to help the poor

do not waste it on helping another politican travel

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 23:13 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar
wohoo! Reward the lazy!


Not punishing != Rewarding

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 00:09 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar
For us, yes, because we have catastrophic health care coverage. So anything above $2500 is paid for by insurance. And we wait only a week at most.


I have no insurance.

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
Emperor

May 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeH


Right... but per year or per illness?

How much does good insurance cost? ie. Whatever I have I go and get treated and don't pay any more.


60 or so a month

Jon Miller

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
Emperor

May 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 01:17
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poor insurance is roulghy 40 a month

of course, all insurance has copays (on the order of 15) and deductables (on the order of a couple hundred)

Jon Miller

Impaler[WrG] is offline Impaler[WrG]
King
Cheif Manufacturing Officer of Morgan Industires
May 2002
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 01:20 Visit Impaler[WrG]'s homepage!
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As for the original premise of this thread, the Robin Hood taxation of the Rich for the purposes of redistribution through tax reduction or funding of social program for the poor.

WAKE UP PEOPLE, we (in the US) are living under a REGRESSIVE tax system that maschurades as a Progressive one. The Rich pay as a % of their total Income LESS then the lowest working class individuals. Federal income (or should I say WAGE taxes because thats whats taxed) is infact progressive. But EVERY other tax or fee (of which their are thousands) is highly regresive. Add ontop of that the amount of cheating the wealthy do and any Progressivness is gone.

A federal Flat Tax would not be a flat tax it would be a incresse in the Regressivness of the total tax burden.

Lets atleast have a clear picture of the real situation before we start talking about what it should or shouldnt be.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 01:27
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Regressive means the poor pay more as a percentage. I don't know of any tax in which people who make less than x pay a higher percentage than those who make over x. In essense all sales tax, or user fees are FLAT, ie, not regressive.

quote:
A federal Flat Tax would not be a flat tax it would be a incresse in the Regressivness of the total tax burden.


Whether tax rates are progressive or regressive are not measured in total tax burden . It is measured on the amount of tax to be paid. The flat tax is neither progressive nor regressive and calling it regressive is simply another propaganda trick.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
This isn't income distribution... it's simply taxing the rich more than the poor.

It's called progressive taxation Dissident... it's NOT income distribution.



everyone @ sava

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 04:56
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@ Sava

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 05:04 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
WTF is wrong with you!?! If anything America is turning into a fascist nation. Socialist my arse. You lot are so incompetent that you can't even organize a health care system.

Lineup for me to get a cyst removed in Canada: 1 year
Lineup for my father to get a very similar cyst removed in California: 1 hour

Solomwi is offline Solomwi

King
Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 05:22
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Aeson, have you seen this plan? Sounds similar to your proposal.

http://www.fairtax.org/

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
Emperor

May 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 05:30
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hmm, lets see Imran

lets consider 4 people and 3 tax systems

the 4 people are a Rich man who made 60 Credits, a Middle class man who made 20 Cs, a Poor man who made 15 Cs, and a man in pOverty who made 10 Cs

the first tax system, what I would call a regressive tax and you a flat tax, is what they use for a lot of the fees and standard taxes (like that to register a car, or a cell phone, or to buy a bottle of Jack), there is just a 'flat tax' of 10 done across the board

here is what it would look like after taxes
R = 50Cs (83% left)
M = 10Cs (50% left)
P = 5Cs (33% left)
O = 0 Cs (0 % left)
State = 40 Cs

second lets consider what I would consider a flat tax, lets consider one that takes 50% of the income

R = 30Cs (50% left)
M = 10Cs (50% left)
P = 7.5 Cs (50% left)
O = 5 Cs (50% left)
S = 52.5 Cs

finally lets consider a progressive tax system, where the first 10Cs are not taxed at all, the next 5 are taxed at 20%, the next 5 are taxed at 40%, and everything beyond that is taxed at 75% (this is like what the federal income tax is meant to be now (But the rich break it with their accountants))

R = 27 Cs (45% left)
M = 17 Cs (85% left)
P = 14 Cs (93% left)
O = 10 Cs (100% left)
S = 37 Cs

As is clearly seen, the method that you prefer ****s the poor in the ass, and not in that nice gay way either

and in fact, the progressive way is the only way that allows the poor material wealth to have the opportunity to survive

Jon Miller

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 08:00
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You're a total moron. Can you point to a single post by me saying I'd prefer a flat tax?

Btw, you also have not proved that a flax tax is a regressive tax. It's the same %, and thus cannot be a regressive tax. Your first example is not a flat tax. Tax is a percentage, not an specific dollar amount everyone gets taken out . Who in any thread here, or in the entire world, has proposed your tax 1?! Flat tax indeed!

joncha is offline joncha
Emperor
North of FOPOG
Jan 2003
time: 21:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 08:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
As is clearly seen, the method that you prefer ****s the poor in the ass, and not in that nice gay way either


That's gotta go in somebody's sig.

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
Emperor

May 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You're a total moron. Can you point to a single post by me saying I'd prefer a flat tax?

Btw, you also have not proved that a flax tax is a regressive tax. It's the same %, and thus cannot be a regressive tax. Your first example is not a flat tax. Tax is a percentage, not an specific dollar amount everyone gets taken out . Who in any thread here, or in the entire world, has proposed your tax 1?! Flat tax indeed!


that is (Sorta) what sales taxes are like

and deffinitely what the fees are like (to do stuff like own a cell phone or a car)

and it is deffinitely a regressive tax (where the rich pay a smaller percentage)

and overall the tax system would be more like that than progressive if the income tax went to a flat tax

JM

Aeson is offline Aeson
Emperor
orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 09:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Solomwi
Aeson, have you seen this plan? Sounds similar to your proposal.

http://www.fairtax.org/


Yah, I've seen it before. Haven't really looked into it much as there is little to no chance it will happen anytime soon.

If it did happen, I'd fully expect our government to have a shoddy version that's no better than our current shoddy version of income taxes.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 09:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Lineup for me to get a cyst removed in Canada: 1 year
Lineup for my father to get a very similar cyst removed in California: 1 hour


Ironically, you reinforce his point.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 09:13
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quote:
that is (Sorta) what sales taxes are like


Um.. sales taxes are on PERCENTAGE. So no.

quote:
and deffinitely what the fees are like (to do stuff like own a cell phone or a car)


Cell phones or car prices aren't taxes. So no dice.

quote:
and overall the tax system would be more like that than progressive if the income tax went to a flat tax


Yes MORE LIKE THAT... not EXACTLY THAT! See the flat tax is this thing which is neither progressive nor regressive. It's right in the middle (equal % taken). A flat tax is more regressive than a progressive tax, but it ain't a regressive tax.

quote:
Ironically, you reinforce his point.


I totally and completely fail to see how. He just showed how much more efficient the US's system was in getting a cyst removed.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

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Sep 2002
time: 23:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 09:27
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quote:
I totally and completely fail to see how. He just showed how much more efficient the US's system was in getting a cyst removed.

I believe UR meant that in the US, a rich man was gauranteed of getting his cyst gone faster than a poor man.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
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  Old Post 21-05-2004 09:28
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And Asher's statement demonstrated that how?

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
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Sep 2002
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  Old Post 21-05-2004 09:29
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How do I know, do I look like UR?

Other than that we can assume Asher and his parents are rich because he's always bragging about new computers (especially those loaded with expensive Microsloth products).

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 09:32
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quote:
How do I know, do I look like UR?




But yes, Kucinich is correct in pointing out that Asher's statement doesn't demonstrate at all that a rich man gets his cyst removed faster than a poorer man (even though I believe you were correct in that is what he meant).

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-05-2004 09:33
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quote:
Other than that we can assume Asher and his parents are rich because he's always bragging about new computers (especially those loaded with expensive Microsloth products).


He pays for all of his computers with money he makes at work. I can't be sure if his parents are 'rich' or not based on that.

 
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