21-05-2004 09:38									#91
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell How do I know, do I look like UR? Other than that we can assume Asher and his parents are rich because he's always bragging about new computers (especially those loaded with expensive Microsloth products).

The only computer my parents have ever given me was a Pentium 100 for my room after they upgraded their computer.

I buy all the others myself. I'm a computer geek, I'm willing to spend the money.

As for the Microsoft products, I can't remember the last time I paid for MS PC software. Virtually every piece of software Microsoft makes is free for students if your uni is part of the MSDN Academic Alliance.

We were, of course, insured while living in the US through my dad's company. I don't think it was a very stellar HMO, Kaiser Permanente, IIRC, but it's still way, way better than the service we get in Canada.

	21-05-2004 09:39									#92
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Oh.. Kaiser sucks .

	21-05-2004 09:41									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar wohoo! Reward the lazy!

btw, I like your sig

	21-05-2004 09:42									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: that is (Sorta) what sales taxes are like Um.. sales taxes are on PERCENTAGE. So no. quote: and deffinitely what the fees are like (to do stuff like own a cell phone or a car) Cell phones or car prices aren't taxes. So no dice. quote: and overall the tax system would be more like that than progressive if the income tax went to a flat tax Yes MORE LIKE THAT... not EXACTLY THAT! See the flat tax is this thing which is neither progressive nor regressive. It's right in the middle (equal % taken). A flat tax is more regressive than a progressive tax, but it ain't a regressive tax. quote: Ironically, you reinforce his point. I totally and completely fail to see how. He just showed how much more efficient the US's system was in getting a cyst removed.

there are taxes on cell phones and cars and most everything else that are basically required to live in modern society

these are almost always regressive taxes, in that it is just one straight ammount that everyone pays (I assume that you look at your cell phone bill, and have looked at buying a car?)

sales taxes might seem flat, but they are actually regressive because what is sales taxed, the rich and poor buy in about equal numbers and so pay the same (reason why I said sorta)

it is just that the poor have a lot less money to pay out of

Jon Miller

	21-05-2004 09:43									#95
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So I've heard, which makes it all the more sad that Canada's worse.

Every time I bring this up in Canada, they always blame it on Alberta underfunding it (of course, Alberta is conservative, so we underfund everything by default...).

But in reality, Alberta spends more per capita on healthcare than most provinces: http://www.fcpp.org/publication_detail.php?PubID=191

Canada average in 2000: $2,198/person.
Alberta in 2000: $2,242/person.

Alberta also has the youngest population across all of the provinces, which reduces cost requirements.

	21-05-2004 09:43									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The only computer my parents have ever given me was a Pentium 100 for my room after they upgraded their computer. I buy all the others myself. I'm a computer geek, I'm willing to spend the money. As for the Microsoft products, I can't remember the last time I paid for MS PC software. Virtually every piece of software Microsoft makes is free for students if your uni is part of the MSDN Academic Alliance. We were, of course, insured while living in the US through my dad's company. I don't think it was a very stellar HMO, Kaiser Permanente, IIRC, but it's still way, way better than the service we get in Canada.

Kaiser is the worst insurance I have ever had (and also the cheapest)

I am paying twice as much for better right now

and just so everyone knows, Asher works his ass off for what he owns, it is not given him

JOn Miller

	21-05-2004 09:48									#97
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell I believe UR meant that in the US, a rich man was gauranteed of getting his cyst gone faster than a poor man.

It doesn't matter how much money you make, if you're under the same HMO it's all the same.

And as people have said, the HMO we were in was one of the cheapest.

	21-05-2004 09:52									#98
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I am BlueCross BlueShield CareFirst PPO

Jon Miller

	21-05-2004 09:55									#99
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quote: these are almost always regressive taxes, in that it is just one straight ammount that everyone pays

But everyone pays the same amount. The poor don't pay a greater amount, just more percentage wise.

quote: sales taxes might seem flat, but they are actually regressive because what is sales taxed, the rich and poor buy in about equal numbers and so pay the same

And they pay the same percentage wise, so it isn't regressive. It is equal.

Regressive taxation is when the poor pay either more in absolute terms or percentage-wise. Progressive is when the rich pay more. When poor and rich pay the same in absolute or percentage-wise it is neither.

	21-05-2004 10:00									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: these are almost always regressive taxes, in that it is just one straight ammount that everyone pays But everyone pays the same amount. The poor don't pay a greater amount, just more percentage wise. quote: sales taxes might seem flat, but they are actually regressive because what is sales taxed, the rich and poor buy in about equal numbers and so pay the same And they pay the same percentage wise, so it isn't regressive. It is equal. Regressive taxation is when the poor pay either more in absolute terms or percentage-wise. Progressive is when the rich pay more. When poor and rich pay the same in absolute or percentage-wise it is neither.

can't you read?

it is most deffinitely regressive when the poor and the rich pay the same absolutely

and yes, sales tax is flat on the surface, in that everyone pays te same percentage

but the rich don't pay it on all their wealth, they buy (on stuff that there is a Sales tax on) roughly the same as the poor

and so pay teh same ammount

my post clearly showed how abolutely unfair it was to have the rich and the poor pay the same absolute ammount

I know you are not dumb, please reread and think carefully about it

Jon Miller

	21-05-2004 10:02									#101
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A flat tax is regressive. Someone making $100k per year can afford to lose 10% of their income far more than someone making $10k can.

	21-05-2004 10:05									#102
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I agree with that as well

I am arguing that the rest of the system (ignoring the income tax) is already regressive

and so make the income tax a flat tax wouldjsut make it more regressive (which is inarguable)

Jon Miller

	21-05-2004 10:10									#103
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I'd like to see one of these conservative "tax crusaders" get rid of something regressive (like sales tax) for a change, and stop whining about income tax levels.

	21-05-2004 11:09									#104
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quote: Originally posted by joncha A flat tax is regressive. Someone making $100k per year can afford to lose 10% of their income far more than someone making $10k can.

You're an idiot, you know that?

quote: regressive adj 1: (of taxes) adjusted so that the rate decreases as the amount increases

If everyone is charged at a rate of 10%, then the rate DOESN'T decrease as the amount increases.

	21-05-2004 11:11									#105
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quote: Originally posted by joncha I'd like to see one of these conservative "tax crusaders" get rid of something regressive (like sales tax) for a change, and stop whining about income tax levels.

Sales tax isn't regressive, for several reasons:

1) people with more money tend to buy more stuff, thus they pay more sales tax

2) sales tax is completely voluntary

3) it's not an income tax

	21-05-2004 11:12									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich 2) sales tax is completely voluntary

Yeah, I voluntarily decided not to buy any food. My starvation is voluntary.

	21-05-2004 11:16									#107
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How predictable. Yes, you voluntarily decide to buy food. No one is coercing you.

	21-05-2004 11:16									#108
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check out what is taxed, and by how much

and tell me again that it is completely voluntary

and actually, it is well known that poor people buy (a lot) more stuff, relative to their income and wealth than rich people, so they don't pay the same percentage of their income as poor peopel for sales tax (and therefore the sales tax is not only not progressive, it is not flat either, and is in fact regressive)

Jon Miller

	21-05-2004 11:21									#109
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But that's voluntary - if they pay more in sales tax, sucks for them, it's their fault. I didn't force them to buy so much stuff.

You guys still haven't addressed the point that it isn't even an income tax, and so the terms regressive and progressive are essentially meaningless.

	21-05-2004 11:25									#110
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Yes, because people who are charged sales tax don't have any income. Transactions take place in isolation from the rest of society.

	21-05-2004 11:29									#111
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What does that have to do with anything? It's not an income tax, so regressive/progressive have nothing to do with it.

	21-05-2004 11:32									#112
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH US becoming socialist?!

It's happening, but at a much slower rate than Europe.

	21-05-2004 11:34									#113
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A tax that effects rich people more than poor people: progressive.

A tax that effects poor people more than rich people: regressive.

	21-05-2004 11:36									#114
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Er... So if you get sick you have to pay the first $2500 but then if they cure you of that and you get something else you have to pay another $2500 or would the first one cover it? I can't get around the fact that someone might be sick and they wouldn't get treated because they can't afford it. To me that's just wrong.

you people don't understand.

Medical care is free in the Unites States. You just do what illegal immigrants do. Go to the emergency room. And don't pay your bill.

Who picks up the tab? Insurance companies ulitmately.

So essentually we already have socialized medicine in the U.S.

You don't have to pay anything if you are poor!!

	21-05-2004 11:48									#115
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Been there, done that.

	21-05-2004 11:53									#116
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* Aeson is sure the dictionary is wrong about the definition of the term "regressive".

	21-05-2004 12:12									#117
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I like Wes Clark's plan. People under $50,000 with 2 children pay no income taxes, people under $100,000 with 2 children get a deduction, and the top 1% have a 5% tax increase (effectively giving back what Bush gave them.)

	21-05-2004 12:14									#118
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why do I get penalized for having no children?

	21-05-2004 12:31									#119
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Down with the capitalist pigs!

	21-05-2004 12:38									#120
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Kucinich: What with this "Its not an Income Tax" thing you keep refering too? What differnce dose that make? For that matter the socalled Income Tax is NOT an income tax it is a WAGE tax. Other formes of Income are taxed on completly differnt systems (mostly flat or regressive). Conservatives consistently ask for these other forms of compensation to be taxed at lower or often zero %. Ofcorse this will do nothing for the average man who isn't paid in stock options or dividends. Practicaly ALL the benifit will fall on wealthy.

Ofcorse you will argue this is completly fair because the Stock options and Dividens are all being taxed at a completly fair and flat tax for everyone, its the poor mans fault for CHOSING to be payed a Wage which will get taxed, just as its his choice to eat, rent a home and drive a car.

The point is that NOW the % of money that would otherwise end up in your pocket that is taken by the goverment (which I call called taxes regardless of when or why its taken) is a regressive tax, you conservatives are trying to make the system MORE regressive not flatter.