21-05-2004 02:24									#61
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd For the same reason I don't think we should kill, torture, or consume humans. It's unethical. I thought I already covered that...

Why do you think it is unethical to kill, torture, and consume humans?

	21-05-2004 02:27									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Well, the cites come from here: http://www.vegsource.com/articles/veg_definition.htm What's a Vegetarian? Now I'm sure that people will complain that the site is biased, but it is cited work. Can you produce any evidence that a diet including meat is necessarily going to be better than one without meat? Would the fact that a low-fat vegetarian diet is healthier than a low-fat diet including meat convince you of the "logic" of being vegetarian in one regard? Or are you going to make a further qualification that only unhealthy vegetarian diets need be deemed illogical?

Bah. I probably did overstep my boundaries, hence the need for qualification. I'm not going to try to argue this with you as I don't really have the data available to back up what I say.

But I will continue to argue with General Ludd over there, because he's a vegetarian for ethical reasons, and that's where all the inconsistencies show up.

	21-05-2004 02:29									#63
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Ludd, that's BS, and you know it. There is nothing inconsistent about being a "speciest" or whatever it's being called these days. I care only for our species, as a group.

Personally, I am omnivorous. My favourite general combination is the good old Meat+Salad+vegicarbohydrates for dinner, Eggs, bread and Yogurt for breakfast, and bread and yougurt for supper, and fruit all day long.

My personal experience is that the less meat I eat, the more weight I gain.

	21-05-2004 02:32									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Given that species borders have more grounding in biological reality than to kingdom ones, why is making an exclusion for humans more illogical than making on for animals? (I'm assuming you have no moral issues with eating plants, fungus or bacteria.)

How is equating humans to potatos, instead of other animals, logical?


That said, I do follow the belief "all life is sacred" in a sense. I don't think we should squander plant life, either. Which is all the more reason to be vegetarian. Is it not better to kill only the plants on your plate instead of the (many times more) plants it takes to raise an animal? (along with the animal itself)

I'm not making an exclusion of animals. I'm making an inclusion of humans.

	21-05-2004 02:36									#65
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quote: That said, I do follow the belief "all life is sacred" in a sense. I don't think we should squander plant life, either. Which is all the more reason to be vegetarian. Is it not better to kill only the plants on your plate instead of the (many times more) plants it takes to raise an animal? (along with the animal itself)

You could synthesize your own food, butcher.

	21-05-2004 02:40									#66
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd That said, I do follow the belief "all life is sacred" in a sense.

Why is all life sacred?

quote: Is it not better to kill only the plants on your plate instead of the (many times more) plants it takes to raise an animal? (along with the animal itself)

You are utilitarian, then. Okay.

In that case, is it not better to kill off all forms of life that consume other forms of life, and leave behind only those things that take energy from the sun, or from undersea volcanoes, etc...?

	21-05-2004 02:40									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov quote: There is abundant evidence that vegetarian diets are more healthful than the average American diet, especially for preventing, treating or reversing heart disease and reducing the risk of cancer.

AHA!

The purest Omnivore diest come from places like China, Mexico, or even french diets. American diests are NOT that omnivorous- too much emphasis on red meat and processed flours.

Maybe you can show the superiority of the Vegitarian diet over the Carnivorous diet, but Omnivores RULE!

	21-05-2004 02:42									#68
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Even with an emphasis it doesn't mean lack there of.

	21-05-2004 02:42									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: That said, I do follow the belief "all life is sacred" in a sense. I don't think we should squander plant life, either. Which is all the more reason to be vegetarian. Is it not better to kill only the plants on your plate instead of the (many times more) plants it takes to raise an animal? (along with the animal itself) You could synthesize your own food, butcher.

Not good enough; still killing the bacteria inside him. Evil immune system.

	21-05-2004 02:45									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Even with an emphasis it doesn't mean lack there of.

American consume way too few fruits and vegetables in their average diet-and far more red meat than in other diets. The French, Chinese or Mexican diest have a much greater balance-and hence closer to the omnivore ideal.

	21-05-2004 02:50									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Not good enough; still killing the bacteria inside him. Evil immune system.

How about living in a sterile enviroment, with synthetic stuff replacing his natural intestinal fauna?

	21-05-2004 02:50									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Ludd, that's BS, and you know it. There is nothing inconsistent about being a "speciest" or whatever it's being called these days. I care only for our species, as a group.

As I said, it's only inconsistent if you hold somewhat liberal views. Mainly because it's the same line of reasoning that every oppresor uses - that you can create arbitrary definitions to support your own superiority. Blacks are below humans and women are not equal, therefor they exist to serve our needs.

I think it's also worth noting that all cases of inter-human oppresion involve equations between the opressed victims and other animals, specifically those that we eat or have domesticated.

quote: Why do you think it is unethical to kill, torture, and consume humans?

As I said before, if you hold no ethics then you are excluded.

(although perhaps I didn't express that as clearly as I should of before... what is a good term for someone devoid of ethics? I always use the term 'fascist' for that purpose )

	21-05-2004 02:50									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Why do you think it is unethical to kill, torture, and consume humans?

the Human body is mostly not for eating.

	21-05-2004 02:51									#74
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd How is equating humans to potatos, instead of other animals, logical? That said, I do follow the belief "all life is sacred" in a sense. I don't think we should squander plant life, either. Which is all the more reason to be vegetarian. Is it not better to kill only the plants on your plate instead of the (many times more) plants it takes to raise an animal? (along with the animal itself) I'm not making an exclusion of animals. I'm making an inclusion of humans.

you should only eat fruits if thats your view. Those were designed to be eaten.

	21-05-2004 02:52									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha the Human body is mostly not for eating.

That was not the case in the movie, Jurrasic Park.

	21-05-2004 02:52									#76
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Those dinosaurs all got sick and died! coincidence? I think not!
[edit] except for the ones on the Island with Lisene or whatever its called [/edit]

	21-05-2004 02:53									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel How about living in a sterile enviroment, with synthetic stuff replacing his natural intestinal fauna?

Ooo, that's good. Get to it, Ludd!

	21-05-2004 02:56									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha Those dinosaurs all got sick and died! coincidence? I think not! [edit] except for the ones on the Island with Lisene or whatever its called [/edit]

And it wasn't the case when prehistoric humans were on the same food chain level as all other animals.

	21-05-2004 03:02									#79
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd As I said before, if you hold no ethics then you are excluded. (although perhaps I didn't express that as clearly as I should of before... what is a good term for someone devoid of ethics? I always use the term 'fascist' for that purpose )

But we are talking about you. Universalize your theory. That is what it leads to.

Or, if you do not wish to universalize, do what Az said.

	21-05-2004 03:03									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha the Human body is mostly not for eating.

And there are parts of animals we shouldn't eat either. Therefore, we should not eat any animals.

	21-05-2004 03:04									#81
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There are parts of plants we shouldn't eat as well, like tulip bulbs... so we just shouldn't eat I guess.

	21-05-2004 03:11									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Japher There are parts of plants we shouldn't eat as well, like tulip bulbs... so we just shouldn't eat I guess.

Yes, I was going to say that, but I got distracted. Thank you.

	21-05-2004 03:12									#83
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Looks like the "trivialise the vegetarian's beliefs through absurdities" tactic is going full throttle now.

Took longer then I expected.



I'll see if I can find any arguments that actually offer a serious point...

	21-05-2004 03:15									#84
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun And it wasn't the case when prehistoric humans were on the same food chain level as all other animals.

you mean the ones that we hunted to extinction? (damn cloning, hurry up I want a Mammoth steak!)

	21-05-2004 03:16									#85
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Yes, absurdities. This is the same thing that Socrates did. He took people's beliefs and theories to the most extreme logical extension, and showed how they were then illogical.

Do not claim to hold an ethical viewpoint if you are not willing to be completely ethical. It is hypocrisy to only go part of the way.

That is why I say that it is perfectly okay for people to be vegetarians based purely on their preference, because they do not claim that what they are doing is right. You are. And you are wrong.

	21-05-2004 03:17									#86
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Looks like the "trivialise the vegetarian's beliefs through absurdities" tactic is going full throttle now. Took longer then I expected. I'll see if I can find any arguments that actually offer a serious point...

I didn't mean to be demeaning with my posts, sorry if it came off that way.

	21-05-2004 03:19									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael But we are talking about you.

Actually, I am also talking about you. I claimed in my first post that it is meat eaters who are inconsistent in their beliefs, and that is part of what i am arguing

quote: Universalize your theory. That is what it leads to.

I don't think I get what you mean here. Are you saying that my theory leads to the view that killing, torturing, and consuming humans is unethical? You are absolutely correct.


Do you not think that, aswell? If you don't... then you are excused, as I said. But if you do, why do you feel that way only towards humans?

	21-05-2004 03:22									#88
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Actually, I am also talking about you. I claimed in my first post that it is meat eaters who are inconsistent in their beliefs, and that is part of what i am arguing

When did I say I was a meat-eater? When also did I say why I was a meat-eater?

quote: I don't think I get what you mean here. Are you saying that my theory leads to the view that killing, torturing, and consuming humans is unethical? You are absolutely correct. Do you not think that, aswell? If you don't... then you are excused, as I said. But if you do, why do you feel that way only towards humans?

No, it leads to

quote: You are utilitarian, then. Okay. In that case, is it not better to kill off all forms of life that consume other forms of life, and leave behind only those things that take energy from the sun, or from undersea volcanoes, etc...?

	21-05-2004 03:40									#89
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So when the lean times come, all the Veges drop dead while we happy Omnivores live on! Specialization = death.

meat takes a lot more resources

so when lean times come, everyone (who is not wealthy) will be vege

JM

	21-05-2004 03:47									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael He took people's beliefs and theories to the most extreme logical extension, and showed how they were then illogical.

You seem pretty relectunt to do the same to yourself, however. Maybe because it's a sure-fire way of showing that anything is "illogical" outside of complete and utter apathy.

Eat meat? Soon you'll eat up all the animals and have to feast upon yourselves!


But I'm glad i don't know more about him if that's all he did. Sounds like the fez of his times.

Not that I actually believe that's all he did.... surely being a dick isn't enough to earn you a place in history?

quote: When did I say I was a meat-eater? When also did I say why I was a meat-eater?

Your first post in this thread, I believe. you stated that you are not one (despite once considering it) and that you hate vegetarians for being inconsistent, which presumably means you view meat-eating as being consistent.

quote: You are utilitarian, then. Okay. In that case, is it not better to kill off all forms of life that consume other forms of life, and leave behind only those things that take energy from the sun, or from undersea volcanoes, etc...?

Even though this is just more absurdities, I will answer it since you seem to take it so seriously. I am not a utilitarian, I am an environmentalist. I believe in a natural ballance. I do not believe that nothing should ever die, but I do believe that life should not be squandered.

Or systematically raped.

quote: Do not claim to hold an ethical viewpoint if you are not willing to be completely ethical. It is hypocrisy to only go part of the way.

This is actually exactly what i am saying. Only you seem to hold the view that since you can't take ethics to some absurd extremity and coddle and protect bacteria, that it is not worthwhile to be ethical at all.

That's a pretty stupid attitude.

And I don't know why I'm wasting my effort on someone who's devoid of any morality.