23-05-2004 00:43									#1
	Electing Ministers Get a bigger avatar today!

I think we should bring this up again. If we choose to elect ministers, we get new people involved in this game, or the ministry stays the same and nothing changes. I find it's quite hard to be active in these games if you do not have a job. What do you think?

	23-05-2004 01:00									#2
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well, when we had to pick a deputy MOI a while back, only one person actually wanted the job, so the election would have been a little bit biased.

And personally, I think that the job should go to the most able, if that person is willing.

	23-05-2004 01:09									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Krill well, when we had to pick a deputy MOI a while back, only one person actually wanted the job, so the election would have been a little bit biased. And personally, I think that the job should go to the most able, if that person is willing.

Well, as I said in my post, if there is only one person, that's find. Anyways, that is only the MoI position, there are other more popular ones. Isn't it the point of the people to say who is the most able person?

	23-05-2004 01:51									#4
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No, since people can be misinformed, and some use opinions instead of facts when voting.

But I AM biased. I prefer technocracies to democracies.

So if your idea goes to a vote, you would win, since it would increase interest in the game, and (maybe) efficiency

And stop disrespecting my job!!

edited for grammar and depth

Last edited by Krill on 23-05-2004 at 02:29

	23-05-2004 02:12									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Krill No, since people can be misinformed, and some use opinions instead of facts when voting. But I AM biased. I prefer technocracies to democracies. So if your idea goes to a vote, you would more likly than not win And stop disrespecting my job!!

You are biased for different reasons than you may think And since you would vote against elections, it would automatically be shot down?

	23-05-2004 02:30									#6
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I added the reason to my orriginal post, but I do not understand you last comment:

quote: And since you would vote against elections, it would automatically be shot down?

what I meant: So if your idea goes to a vote, you would win, since it would increase interest in the game, and (maybe) efficiency

	23-05-2004 02:40									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Krill I added the reason to my orriginal post, but I do not understand you last comment: quote: And since you would vote against elections, it would automatically be shot down? what I meant: So if your idea goes to a vote, you would win, since it would increase interest in the game, and (maybe) efficiency

That's because I'm stupid

	23-05-2004 03:17									#8
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No objection.

	23-05-2004 08:58									#9
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Any other opinions on this? And if I post a poll, there are no rules unless I am posting a constitutional ammendment, correct?

	23-05-2004 09:36									#10
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I believe this would be a constitutional amendment. And there are a few rules for binding polls even if it weren't.

	23-05-2004 09:38									#11
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It would be a constitutional ammendment, now that I think about it. What's your view on things Kloreep?

	23-05-2004 10:04									#12
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I'm thinking it over... I'm not sure it would be better or worse than the current system. Just make sure you include CoC ability. Also perhaps the ability to have the Consuls shortcut a CoC and just sack a minister if all three agree.

	23-05-2004 10:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I'm thinking it over... I'm not sure it would be better or worse than the current system. Just make sure you include CoC ability. Also perhaps the ability to have the Consuls shortcut a CoC and just sack a minister if all three agree.

I thought we could have an election each month for a position. A rotation like the Consuls. We could also amend that the Consuls can CoC a minister if they all agree. But they would have to be polled as seperate issues. So, who likes my new avatar?

	23-05-2004 11:10									#14
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Having an election each month for one of the minsters works fine with me.

And a minister can be sacked with a unanimous vote by the Consuls.



--Togas

p.s. Now, who wants to write up the Amendment?

	23-05-2004 16:40									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Now, who wants to write up the Amendment?

/oldschool 3A2C3

The motion is fine. Amendments are NOT.

	23-05-2004 21:35									#16
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Amendments make me Is the next step posting an official poll?

By the way Krill, why did you edit MWIA's post?

	23-05-2004 22:25									#17
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I have an idea! We could use the Consul rotation amendment for the ministers amendment and then change around a few things. This would be used for the rotation of minister positions. If there are any errors, please feel free to correct them:


c. Each month, one of the four minister positions shall come up for election.
d. Minister positions that have never undergone scheduled elections shall undergo scheduled elections once per month in order of the tenure of the position's occupant until all Minister positions have undergone scheduled elections.
e. Once all Minister positions have undergone scheduled elections, the Minister position up for election each month shall be the one, which has gone 4 months since its last scheduled election.
f. Any citizen who is not holding another Consul or Minister position may become a candidate.
g. Candidates for scheduled Minister elections must announce their candidacy by the 4th day of the month.
h. Scheduled Ministerial elections will be held for 72 hours starting on the seventh of the month.
I. If a single candidate obtains a majority of votes in the first vote, he will be the new Minister.
j. If no candidate achieves a majority of the votes, then a second vote will immediately be held for 48 hours between the two leading candidates of the first vote. If a tie on the first vote prevents only two candidates from being chosen for the second vote, then any ties will be broken by a vote of the other Consuls and the three ministers until there are only two leading candidates available for the second vote.
k. If there is a tie vote and only two candidates have received votes, the current holder of the Consul office will break the tie.
l. If a Change of Command (CoC) is successfully exercised against a sitting Minister, the citizen who becomes Minister will fill that Minister position until the next scheduled election for the position rather than receiving his own

Last edited by Lord Nuclear on 23-05-2004 at 22:31

	23-05-2004 23:37									#18
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My opinion on this matter is that the lines of accountability need to be clear. Are the ministers answering to the people through the Consuls or directly to the people rather than the Consuls? Are they answering to both and what is done in cases where the minister believes they are doing something that some of the populace asks for, but for which the Consuls are against? Who is to be held accountable in such situations if the results or intentions are not in line with what the people want, the Consuls or the minister or both?

My preference is for clear lines of accountability. Make the Consuls answer to the populace for the decisions that they make (since they are the final decision-makers). The ministers will act and be accountable to the people through the Consuls. The job of the ministers is to propose plans and make suggestions and to carry out policy as it is decided by the Consuls and populace.

If things are not in line with what the people want, the ones who will be held responsible are the Consuls... the buck stops at their desks.

	24-05-2004 00:13									#19
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But that really isn't the point I am trying to make. It INCREASES activity if we have elections. The ministers could still answer to the Consuls if that is the point you are trying to make. What you are saying means if I don't like what a minister is doing, I should CoC a Consul because they appointed the minister?

	24-05-2004 00:33									#20
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This is a good idea, but before we do impleament it, we definetly need some more discussion on the best way to impleament it.

Here's my take on everything - rather than trying to complicate things with the amendment process and create questionable double-standards on ministirial accountability, we work within the standards of the current law.
Bascially, we get the consuls to agree that, when a new minister is to be appointed, an 'advisory poll' be created with the names of the potential candidates for that position. The winner of the poll is appointed by the consuls to that position.
The problem is, in my view, solved. The Senate gets it's input on the appointment of ministers, and the ministers remain accountable to the consuls. And, if you do want to amend the constitution with this solution, it only really requires the changing of one line (A.7).

	24-05-2004 00:54									#21
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Hmmm... I like your train of thought OctX.

Once a month, the populace puts up an opinon polls about who they think should be in what position. Once the polls is done, it would then be up to the Consuls to impliment the will of the people. They would still have the option of not doing it, but what consul is going to go against the will of the people knowing full well that a CoC could be made against them at any time.

It would make the ministral positions a vote, but would still hold the Consuls responsible.

	24-05-2004 02:12									#22
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I agree with Octavian. Should we implement the Consul CoC (if the three Consuls agree to CoC the minister, the minister is automatically gone) as well?

	24-05-2004 02:16									#23
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My opinion: yes, implement the Consul CoC

How can you hold the Consuls resonsible if they do not have the power to remove the problem?

	24-05-2004 02:39									#24
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How would we implement the Consul CoC in the Constitution? We could probably put it in the CoC area.

Does everyone think Octavian's plan is the best for elections?

	24-05-2004 07:00									#25
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I think this is the idea we should implement.

Once a month, the populace puts up, a nomination thread for each position that would last four days, and then a poll for each position that would be the same as an election. The poll would last 72 hours. Once the polls are done, it would then be up to the Consuls to implement the will of the people. They would still have the option of not doing it.

That way we do not have to make a constitutional amendment about it. What do you think?

	24-05-2004 18:43									#26
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There are only 3 ministerial positions IIRC.

Minister of Interior – this is the position I currently hold.
Deputy MoI – Krill and Paddy the Scott (Paddy does naming only)
Skull Krusher (aka War Department) – held by UberKrux
No deputies that I am aware of.
FAM – Beta
Conmcb25 – ambassador to PAL
???? – ambassador to CDG

BFM is currently running a “ministry of intelligence”, which does a lot of number crunching and so forth, trying to figure out things about the other civs from the limited data we have.

I have no problems with elections, but remember, in most demo games, there are no real elections as most positions have only one person running for them.

I would be opposed to having a FAM up for elections, as I like the idea that there is one person that can be contacted at will, as needed, by another team when they have something they need to communicate, as a backup to the ambassador. Having to guess who to send an email to is such a pain in the arse, and then wondering if they got it, if they posted it, and so forth.

For the war department, there isn’t much to do except kill off some barbs and explore. Any and all are welcome to help in planning the war effort.

City Planning – I gladly welcome input. By far the busiest department at this time. When I requested a deputy a month ago, Krill was the only one to step forward. I know that for a 10 day period at the end of June, beginning of July, I will be doing the physical move into my new house. Who knows how screwed up things will be at that time for my internet connections and so forth. So if anybody is interested, I would gladly either ask for a temp sub (just in case) or even go forth and resign and let someone take over for a while (although I do expect to come back, even if as a deputy).

I doubt elections will make much of a difference. Historically here in demo games, the first couple elections have some people running, but after a couple, people drop out, don’t care, and so forth. So it turns into a one man race. Often, people are afraid of hurting a friends feelings by running against them (although I have yet to hear of an actual disagreement between two people just because one won an election over another).

So if people really want to move forward and have elections, I have no objections, but doubt it will do much good for the purposes expressed. And if you just want to get involved, say something, jump in and do it.

	24-05-2004 19:06									#27
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Well I agree with Arnelos, right now we elect the consuls and they appoint ministers.

The consuls can remove a minister. So we currently have a process in place were all the offices are essentially accountable to the senate.

So if we elect ministers we need to decide what control the consuls will have over there positions.

And Ill be frank here, if a minister "disappears", the consuls need to be able to do something about it. I just think we need to decide how to handle that, maybe an appointment until we can elections up and running.

And be careful what you ask for. Right now for instance, constantly changing a FAM and or the ambassadors to PAL and CDG may send the wrong message, especially as we are trying to feel out and establish our relationship with PAL.

Just look at CFC in the current PtW ISDG where they elect all officers/ officials. That doesn't do anything for there long term consistancy.

No offense to those CFC guys playing here, I think they would agree with me.

With that being said Im NOT against electing the ministers. I just think we need to discuss further and think about it first.

	24-05-2004 21:37									#28
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Well I agree with Arnelos, right now we elect the consuls and they appoint ministers. The consuls can remove a minister. So we currently have a process in place were all the offices are essentially accountable to the senate. So if we elect ministers we need to decide what control the consuls will have over there positions. And Ill be frank here, if a minister "disappears", the consuls need to be able to do something about it. I just think we need to decide how to handle that, maybe an appointment until we can elections up and running. And be careful what you ask for. Right now for instance, constantly changing a FAM and or the ambassadors to PAL and CDG may send the wrong message, especially as we are trying to feel out and establish our relationship with PAL. Just look at CFC in the current PtW ISDG where they elect all officers/ officials. That doesn't do anything for there long term consistancy. No offense to those CFC guys playing here, I think they would agree with me. With that being said Im NOT against electing the ministers. I just think we need to discuss further and think about it first.

Review my last post In it, it describes why the Consuls still have power over the ministers, and how elections and a constitutional amendment is not needed. They would just be a senate opinion poll that the Consuls may or may not take. However if they don't, they risk a CoC on them.

	24-05-2004 21:43									#29
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing There are only 3 ministerial positions IIRC. Minister of Interior – this is the position I currently hold. Deputy MoI – Krill and Paddy the Scott (Paddy does naming only) Skull Krusher (aka War Department) – held by UberKrux No deputies that I am aware of. FAM – Beta Conmcb25 – ambassador to PAL ???? – ambassador to CDG BFM is currently running a “ministry of intelligence”, which does a lot of number crunching and so forth, trying to figure out things about the other civs from the limited data we have. I have no problems with elections, but remember, in most demo games, there are no real elections as most positions have only one person running for them. I would be opposed to having a FAM up for elections, as I like the idea that there is one person that can be contacted at will, as needed, by another team when they have something they need to communicate, as a backup to the ambassador. Having to guess who to send an email to is such a pain in the arse, and then wondering if they got it, if they posted it, and so forth. For the war department, there isn’t much to do except kill off some barbs and explore. Any and all are welcome to help in planning the war effort. City Planning – I gladly welcome input. By far the busiest department at this time. When I requested a deputy a month ago, Krill was the only one to step forward. I know that for a 10 day period at the end of June, beginning of July, I will be doing the physical move into my new house. Who knows how screwed up things will be at that time for my internet connections and so forth. So if anybody is interested, I would gladly either ask for a temp sub (just in case) or even go forth and resign and let someone take over for a while (although I do expect to come back, even if as a deputy). I doubt elections will make much of a difference. Historically here in demo games, the first couple elections have some people running, but after a couple, people drop out, don’t care, and so forth. So it turns into a one man race. Often, people are afraid of hurting a friends feelings by running against them (although I have yet to hear of an actual disagreement between two people just because one won an election over another). So if people really want to move forward and have elections, I have no objections, but doubt it will do much good for the purposes expressed. And if you just want to get involved, say something, jump in and do it.

Well, the ambassadors are still going to be appointed. The other teams SHOULD be getting the messages from the other teams anyways. What makes this interesting, is if no one wants the position other than the current minister, there doesn't need to be any elections for that position, we are allowed to do that because it is unofficial.

	24-05-2004 21:45									#30
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We also have a choice about whether we would do ALL positions each month, or a rotation like the Consul positions. I am in support of the latter in this case because the polls could be based on three months of experience for each position. Instead of just one month.

Last edited by Lord Nuclear on 24-05-2004 at 23:34