25-05-2004 07:31									#31
	Tired of ads?

Game #1 has started - the turn reporting thread is here

	25-05-2004 07:54									#32
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: "last place on the totem pole" status so as to get the tech research boost

Hrmm how much of a research boost is it to be last place? Or is this just a observation that may be from the global tech reduction effects?

	25-05-2004 09:15									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Prima's guide gives a simplified version of the formula used:

Research cost=[11 + (DIFF x 4) + {(TECHS x 6) / 5} - (TURNS/8) - (MOSTTECHS/5)] x TECHS x WORLDSIZE

where:

DIFF = Citizen = 0 up to Transcend = 5
TECHS = # techs you have discovered as a player
MOSTTECHS = # techs discovered by any one player
TURNS = # turns already played
WORLDSIZE = 1 if standard, (.6 tiny; .8 small; 1.1 large and 1.6 huge)

Some additional latitude uis given the program to increase or reduce costs by between 2% to 15% depending on the relative strength/weakness of the faction in overall research points per turn.

Prima concludes by saying:

As you might be able to see, the greatest factor is how many techs you yourself have discovered

G.

	25-05-2004 09:50									#34
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Okay thanks, sounds like there's another micromanagement opportunity for me.

Edit:

quote: Some additional latitude uis given the program to increase or reduce costs by between 2% to 15% depending on the relative strength/weakness of the faction in overall research points per turn.

Ran some tests on this in an extreme early game example. The comparision I did was 6 labs opposed to 1 lab. There was no tech difference in this instance. I wonder what they meant by this....

	25-05-2004 10:11									#35
	Increase Your PM Length

LOL, Kody

(Prima also goes on to say that you can quickly estimate the cost of your next tech by squaring the # techs you have and adding a bit, making sure to adjust proportionally for WORLDSIZE and tech stagnation (+50%)

They don't say how big the "bit' is that you add

G.

	25-05-2004 12:21									#36
	Increase Your PM Length

Oh yeah, had to sleep *blush* I'm happy with the set up... Yeah I'd even be happy playing the Cult for chrissake I'll play any factions you want.

Hive and Uni... could be tasty...

-Jam

	25-05-2004 17:29									#37
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Re Game 2:

I do have SMAX, so if the other players do as well we can go with the original pairings; if not we can go with the revised pairings.

	25-05-2004 18:33									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

If we went smax for game #2 we could mix industry and research factions thus:

Drones & University (+2 IND, -2 RESEARCH) with (+2 RESEARCH, -2 PROBE)
Hive & Consciousness (+1 GROWTH, +1 IND, -2 ECON) with (+2 RESEARCH, -1GROWTH, +2 EFFIC)
Morgan & Angels (+1 ECON, -1SUPPORT) with (+2 PROBE, -1 POLICE)

The Angels' techshare ability makes up to a certain extent for that pairing's research imbalance

Might make for an interesting game

Maybe with a slightly beefed up AI - the Pirates on steroids - to cope with as well

G.

	25-05-2004 19:04									#39
	Remove this text

You don't think the Drones & Uni will get every SP?

-Jam

	25-05-2004 19:26									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Both drones & University can pop boom, while Hive and consciousness are unable to boom. It might be more fair to switch Drones and Hive around, then every pair has a pop boom impaired faction.

	25-05-2004 19:40									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmmmm

Maybe introduce a variant of something I tried a couple of years ago (and it worked like a charm then)

Each team starts with 1500 notional units of currency.

There is a sealed auction for start units, techs and early Sp's (faction bonuses still apply, so the Hive still gets its perim defense and the Uni still gets its free tech and netnodes, etc)

1 Colony pod is a given - everyone starts with a free one for each of their factions. Teams then have to buy everything else to start from the following shopping list:

> a scout or infantry probe (Angels only) costs 100

> a synthmetal sentry (Morgan only) or rover probe (Angels only) costs 125

> a terraformer costs 150

> each colony pod costs 200

> each tech costs 200 (can only buy their factions' starting techs)

> an early SP costs 500 (ME, HGP, WP, CN)

Thus, for example, the Drones/Uni team might spend their 1500 on:

an extra colony pod each..... 400
a scout apiece ......................200
Ind Base and infonets ..........400
HGP at University base .........500


whereas the Hive/Cyborgs might go:

an extra colony pod each..... 400
a scout apiece ......................200
a former apiece ....................300
Doc Loyalty ...........................200
Infonets ................................200
Applied Physics......................200

etc

The notional cash should always be enough - and then some - to let the team buy its "normal" start position with maybe an extra scout or perhaps a colony pod.

Too extreme for some?

quote: Originally posted by Kody It might be more fair to switch Drones and Hive around, then every pair has a pop boom impaired faction.

Good point, Kody. That would provide a better balance.

G.

	25-05-2004 19:44									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Googlie If we went smax for game #2 we could mix industry and research factions thus: Drones & University (+2 IND, -2 RESEARCH) with (+2 RESEARCH, -2 PROBE) Hive & Consciousness (+1 GROWTH, +1 IND, -2 ECON) with (+2 RESEARCH, -1GROWTH, +2 EFFIC) Morgan & Angels (+1 ECON, -1SUPPORT) with (+2 PROBE, -1 POLICE) The Angels' techshare ability makes up to a certain extent for that pairing's research imbalance Might make for an interesting game Maybe with a slightly beefed up AI - the Pirates on steroids - to cope with as well G.

Or how about allow each of your opponents to pick one of your factions ( using clones if everyone had a cult etc)-- I did this once and we allowed each player to name one faction they did not want to play before the opponents made their selections. (you could have zero or more vetos)

The point was to take people out of their favored or perceived stronger factions and the first strategy decision you have is to determine whta factions to give your opponents.


---

oh and on the pairings above, IMHO uni-drones would be a monster combo-- but I am biased as I have never loved the consciousness-- To me they always seemed a bit weaker than the uni

I think the morgan angels duo would be strong as well-- i wouldn't mind trying that pair--

	25-05-2004 19:55									#43
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

So what do you think of Kody's proposal:

Hive & University (+1 GROWTH, +1 IND, -2 ECON) with (+2 RESEARCH, -2 PROBE)
Drones & Consciousness (+2 IND, -2 RESEARCH) with (+2 RESEARCH, -1GROWTH, +2 EFFIC)
Morgan & Angels (+1 ECON, -1SUPPORT) with (+2 PROBE, -1 POLICE)

or of Flubber's

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Or how about allow each of your opponents to pick one of your factions

So if it were the same 3 players, Jamski and Flubber would tell Chaunk what factions he was playing, subject to Chaunk being able to declare in advance the one faction he wouldn't play under any circumstances.

Maybe exclude the 2 alien factions from this exercise (LOL - give a player both the factions and he could never trade with himself)

G.

	25-05-2004 20:03									#44
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Googlie So if it were the same 3 players, Jamski and Flubber would tell Chaunk what factions he was playing, subject to Chaunk being able to declare in advance the one faction he wouldn't play under any circumstances. Maybe exclude the 2 alien factions from this exercise (LOL - give a player both the factions and he could never trade with himself) G.

Exactly-- In fact, Jamski and Flubber would collaborate and what combination they thought worked best-- I believe when we did it the only other rule was no sticking the same person with two of the same faction since the point was each player got two different factions.

As for aliens, I tend to always think of them as excluded in PBEMS-- The inability to trade would be large BUT if placed in close proximity to each other you could always probe yourself .

I played an all alien game once ( I believe you set it up googlie) and it was limiting in some ways since no one could trade with anyone . . . Even the caretakers wouldn't speak with other caretakers other than to promise death

	25-05-2004 20:24									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Googlie, with your sealed auction, what would happen if all three teams wanted the HGP, for example?

-Jam

	25-05-2004 20:36									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The currency idea sounds interesting, though to keep factions balanced any faction that would normally start with two techs (Zak, Aki, Sven, Roze, maybe Fungboy) should have a corresponding advantage over any faction that normally starts with one.
If you actually have an auction, then we should place bids on each of the early SPs and whoever bids the most pays it, and gets the SP at that price. Some other mechanism that actually resembles an auction would also work to ensure that SPs are unique, and appropriately priced.

I'd be happy enough to play with two factions of my opponents' choosing. In that case, I'd veto Fungboy.

If we go with Kody's teams, I'd prefer the Domai + Aki.

	25-05-2004 21:17									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory any faction that would normally start with two techs (Zak, Aki, Sven, Roze, maybe Fungboy) should have a corresponding advantage over any faction that normally starts with one.

That might be a rule for single-faction games set up this way (or if we go with the "foist a faction" set-up). In the above example, though, each pair of factions would start with 3 techs (if we postulate that the uni starts with 2 and has to buy both) so there'd be no disadvantage to any combo.

quote: If you actually have an auction, then we should place bids on each of the early SPs and whoever bids the most pays it, and gets the SP at that price. Some other mechanism that actually resembles an auction would also work to ensure that SPs are unique, and appropriately priced.

I agree.

What would make this interesting, though, is the pre-start planning . Do I go with 6 colony pods and 2 formers, and accept the early tech stagnation and lack of exploring that scouts represent? Or maybe a colony pod for each faction and then bid 550 for each of the HGP and WP, perhaps, planning no rec commons for ages while colony pods get churned out thru nutrient terraforming.

I've always thought that the first ten to fifteen turns in PBEMs - especially if there a slow playing group - can be excruciating to play. Often the turn comes round a couple of weeks since you last played it and then all you can do is hit enter 'cos your 2 bases are still half way thru building the next 2 CP's. Anything that can be done to sustain interest in the early game, and present challenges, is to my mind welcome (hence the unusual start in the current 3 x 2 - makes you think and plan ahead - plus with only 3 players it will be fast moving)

G.

	25-05-2004 22:15									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Re Game 2 I also have Smax. Have we a third player ?

You know me I 'll go with the flow.

I think the Morgan Data Angels combo is the weakest: maybe the Pk's in place of the Das. Or maybe Flubber's idea is ok. The Auction idea sounds fun.

	26-05-2004 03:35									#49
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Each team starts with 1500 notional units of currency. There is a sealed auction for start units, techs and early Sp's (faction bonuses still apply, so the Hive still gets its perim defense and the Uni still gets its free tech and netnodes, etc)

Hmm, sounds like a Morganite scheme to corner the Energy Market to me!

quote: Originally posted by Googlie 1 Colony pod is a given - everyone starts with a free one for each of their factions. Teams then have to buy everything else to start from the following shopping list: > a scout or infantry probe (Angels only) costs 100 > a synthmetal sentry (Morgan only) or rover probe (Angels only) costs 125 > a terraformer costs 150 > each colony pod costs 200 > each tech costs 200 (can only buy their factions' starting techs) > an early SP costs 500 (ME, HGP, WP, CN) Thus, for example, the Drones/Uni team might spend their 1500 on: an extra colony pod each..... 400 a scout apiece ......................200 Ind Base and infonets ..........400 HGP at University base .........500 whereas the Hive/Cyborgs might go: an extra colony pod each..... 400 a scout apiece ......................200 a former apiece ....................300 Doc Loyalty ...........................200 Infonets ................................200 Applied Physics......................200 etc The notional cash should always be enough - and then some - to let the team buy its "normal" start position with maybe an extra scout or perhaps a colony pod. Too extreme for some?

How about Rover CP's, Sea Formers, Sea Transports, and Sea CP's? I think they would be ideal to add to the list, IMO! Also, any chance of getting NL's added to the list, as well?
Overall this concept sounds like a very good idea! However, players like myself, Archaic, and Paul (who are very good at one Faction, and not as good at the others) might shy away from this format, given that no one would vote for us to get our favourite Factions....


D

	26-05-2004 04:10									#50
	interesting Enter the AD-FREE zone

I would like to be the third player if you still need one! Haven't played smax much...should be interesting. Like the bidding process myself, its great we still can come up with new ideas for games so long after it has been out!

	26-05-2004 04:30									#51
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

dacole - I'm sorry - I should have linked to the new "player wanted" thread here

Hobbes has already taken that third slot. You're first player for Game #3, though.

Darsnan - nothing says that a 3rd variant couldn't be started, whereby you get to choose one faction and the other two players tell you what your second faction is to be

I'm OK with additional units if they are "Unity approved" in the #UNITS list - that way they can't be reverse engineered. But a seaformer or rover colony pod could be. That would allow just a unity rover or Unity Foil to be listed. (Even my beloved Cruiser Probe can be reverse engineered)

Native life would be good to add, though.