25-05-2004 17:28									#1
	Can we beat the 4-turn tech limit? Put an end to popups!

I've got an idea to beat the 4-turn limit, and make it in a 3.5-turn limit in certain cases. I've got 2 questions:

1. Is my idea on how the mechanics work right?
2. Is it allowed?

The thing is this: we'll go for combustion now, while GoW sits idle. Afterwards, they'll go for Mass production, while we do nothing (or go for flight). However, we give them combustion, and they will receive it before starting on research... meaning that they could set their research path to Mass Prod one turn earlier at 100%, and 'win' the turn delay.
so the following timeline:

T1: we start on combustion
T3: GoW sets research to Mass Prod, 100%
T4 a: we give the tech to GoW.
T4 b: GoW receives the tech, before spending any beakers. It doesn't give access to F1, however as combustion is present, the first beakers they spend go to Mass Prod
T7 a: we set research to Mot transport at 100%
T7: GoW discovers Mass Prod. Send it to us
T8: We receive MP before research, and start on Mot Transport.
T11: we discover MT, and send it to GoW.

and so forth. It only works when the techs are linear, so no 2 prereqs are needed for a tech.

If I count right, this should give a 3.5 turn limit (per 2 techs each time). In case there is no ability to do 4-turn research by a team (not enough bpt at 100%), the same holds: doing it like this, we could get to 4.5 turn research when only having enough bpt for 5-turn research.

So, my 2 questions:
Am I right? And is this an exploit, or a clever way of doing things?

DeepO

	25-05-2004 17:45									#2
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I have no clue if thats right, but it sounds good

I don't think it would be an exploit, as we are in reality just trading techs. Its not our fault it works out like this

my question: is it worth it to shave a turn or two? how is the military coming?

	25-05-2004 17:49									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Question: at turn 3, how do GoW set their research to Mass Production before we've given them combustion? Not possible.

Alternatively: turn 3, GoW set research to combustion. T4a, we send combustion to them. T4b, they get combustion, and are prompted for what to research next. They chose Mass production, and get beakers on that straight away.

	25-05-2004 17:49									#4
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I'm not sure the mechanics work that way. It would need to be tested.

-Arrian

	25-05-2004 17:55									#5
	Got spare money?

BTW I think you're right that it would work. As for being an exploit - I'm not sure it was ever envisaged or intended by the designers (I'm pretty sure it wasn't), but I don't think I'd call it an exploit. Just a cunning use of understanding the rules of the game, that saves one turn of research per two techs researched.

	25-05-2004 17:56									#6
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quote: Originally posted by vulture Question: at turn 3, how do GoW set their research to Mass Production before we've given them combustion? Not possible.

Yes you can. We can now set research to MT, and it will automatically pick all the techs before for us, combustion first. (it will still prompt so you can change it), in less costly order first

quote: Alternatively: turn 3, GoW set research to combustion. T4a, we send combustion to them. T4b, they get combustion, and are prompted for what to research next. They chose Mass production, and get beakers on that straight away.

It doesn't work like that. They are not prompted on what to research next, AFAIK. When gaining a tech through trade, the advisor chooses for you...

DeepO

	25-05-2004 18:00									#7
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I agree it should be tested. I saw this last turn, and wanted to ask permission to the team to set one taxman to scientist, and see if we had the 40-turn limit in effect, or only the 39-turn limit (as it also works on the upper limit). But it was too late to ask anything, so I just went ahead. If we don't receive Steel this turn, we could test it, by at least setting one scientist. 1 gold less is worth a failed test, for all I care.

But exploit or not? It's definately in the grey area. Without all the fuss of the last couple of weeks, I wouldn't hesitate. Now? I don't know... I'm pretty sure it's something not many people have thought of before

DeepO

	25-05-2004 18:05									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel my question: is it worth it to shave a turn or two? how is the military coming?

Forgot to answer this one

I think it is worth it, because I think we're not going to have enough bpt to do all techs. We might, but GoW could be behind. And seeing to the original plan I drew, we're behind in techs, but in front with infs (as we don't have rubber). We will also have more galleons to upgrade. Getting tanks and marines asap, so we can start building them would be good for us.

DeepO

	25-05-2004 18:17									#9
	Got spare money?

Okay - see what you mean about selecting MP - to force the advisor to chose the tech you want when the trade comes in.

It's annoying that we can't exactly ask everyone if this is okay without giving the plot away, thereby negating any advantage to be gained from using it.

	25-05-2004 18:25									#10
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what's worse: we're the only ones being able to benefit, so all other teams (except RP, perhaps) would vote no.

We can ask Trip, if he's still around, but I think he would also oppose it. Again, that's personal opinion...

DeepO

	26-05-2004 00:06									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

we didn't receive steel this turn. Does anyone object we set 1 scientist on steel, and check if the tactic (let's call it tactic for now, and not exploit, as nobody seems to object so far ) works?

Save is being played, so I guess you've got something like 1.5 hour to respond. Without response, I'll try the scientist, if I can find it somewhere.

DeepO

	26-05-2004 00:10									#12
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Try it, I have no objection ti the "Tactic"

	26-05-2004 04:42									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

no objection from me (and yes I know you've played the turn )

	01-06-2004 02:40									#14
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PM to Trip?