25-05-2004 21:05									#1
	High maintainess facilities Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

After reading some discussions I started to wonder a question regarding facilities such as tree farms and research hospitals. They have relatively high maintainess cost. My question is do you build them often? When do you think it is cost effective to build them? Tree farms for example, if you are using the specialist approach, you won't be working to many forest squares. Does that mean it is never optimal to build tree farms then? I understand that tree farm has the effect of increasing clean minerals, but again if you do specialists you won't have much ecodamage any way.

	25-05-2004 21:24									#2
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Read my (still unfinished) fac guide. It has the maths.

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In general I said it depends on base size.

Tree Farms give +50% Econ, so they kinda pay for themselves if you had at least 6 Econ after inefficency...

What I wrote about Research Hospitals :

quote: Notes : This facility is always a problem. It comes with Gene Splicing and heralds the end or the true "Early Game" with the lifting of the restriction on nutrient production. Those size 3-4 bases start growing a bit, you have a decent infrastructure and now you're faced with the choices offered by the first of the "second tier" facilities* Here is the moment when you really have to decide what direction you want to build in. Do you want to go upwards, or outwards? If you want to go outwards, then leave the Research Hospitals for now, apart from those bases you may have identified as science bases. Crawling farms/condensors now the restrictions are lifted can really give you the nutrients needed for a very rapid expansion horizontally. Research Hospitals are expensive to build and maintain, and you want to preserve outward momentum at this point, not shut up shop and enter "turtle mode" The 12 rows of minerals needed means you can't simply rush one at every base and then continue expanding, as you can with Nodes and Energy Banks. You'll have to sit and build for 4-5 turns even with a great cash supply. If you want to build vertically though, this is generally a good time to take your foot off the "colony pod/former/scout patrol" pedal and start to really develop your bases. I have to say this again. They're not cheap. And they keep costing you 3 ec/turn too, so don't build them unless you can afford them. They do boost production in 3 different ways though, so in a large enough base (never build in a small base) they more than pay for themselves. Firstly the +50% Labs. Let's assume a nice size 4 base with the basic facilities already in place, with 2 energy from each population, and say 4 from the base (a moderate estimate) for 12 base energy. Then let's take again the default 50/50 Econ/Labs distribution. In this case, the Research Hospital is going to give you 3 Labs/turn at a cost of 3 ec/turn. No loss, no gain either. However, when that size 4 base grows to size 5, let's imagine that it develops another Drone, which is then quelled by the Research Hospital. We now have to include the added productivity of an extra worker (let's put him on a forest for 1-2-2) which (ignoring the nutrients) is worth 6 ec/turn. This defrays the upkeep cost of the Hospital, returns 3 ec/turn to our pockets, and gives us an extra 0.5 Labs/turn (a whole +1 Labs/turn, with the Node that the base should already have) As the base grows past size 5, you may have to spend on Psych to keep them happy in there, so the 3rd bonus comes into play, of +25% Psych. So, the timing of Research Hospitals is pretty simple. You should aim to have them built the turn before reaching size 5 if running an FM using faction, and any time between sizes 5 and 7 if using Police under Planned or Green and planning on "turtling" for a bit, or if you are planning on spreading like xenofungus before simply crushing everyone, its best not to build them at all. Do one thing, and do it well, its better than messing them both up. One final thing to note - A Research Hospital stops outbreaks of Prometheous Viruses and Planet Blight at that base. *Assuming a normal tech progression to IA, then restriction lifting, then D:AP

What I wrote about Treefarms :

quote: Notes : Coming two techs after Gene Splicing and the Research Hospital comes the Tree Farm, and the lifting of the energy restrictions. Just one tech before, your mineral restriction was removed, and all your 2-mineral crawlers moved off the forests and onto the mine/road/rocky tiles you cunningly had just prepared with this tech in mind, and doubled their production to 4 mins/turn. As a result you suddenly hear*pop* and you know its time to start with the Tree Farms. For my mind, this marks the end of the true "Early Game" and the beginning of the "Mid Game", where all tiles can now be used to their full effects, and all terraforming enhancements are possible except magtubes. Ok, first of all the main reason to build these facilities is not for the extra Econ or Psych. What we are after is the extra nutrient from our forests, (they should be everywhere by now) which will give us the +2 nuts/turn we need for a popboom. If we're playing a faction that needs a Golden Age to popboom, then view the +50% Psych as the game telling you to get into the SE screen and push that central slider to the right. Like Research Hospitals, they boost income by 50%, in this case for Psych and Econ, the other two of the three energy catagories, and in the same way they cover their own costs, as long as the base is producing a base 12 energy after ineffieciency, with anything else being profit. Tree Farms, however, are the one facility where I'm inclined to ignore the maths. The extra nutrients translate into extra growth, which is always good - see my comments on Children's Creches. If you want to count every last ec though, then I'd say that the only bases that are really too small to build a Tree Farm are any bases under size 4 which are not directly working either at least 2 forested rivers, or at least two forests under FM. The "hidden" effects of Tree Farms are also worth considering. Each Tree Farm built increases the number of "clean minerals" for all your bases by one, as long as it was built after the first fungal *pop* and also reduces the Ecodamage at that base caused by terraforming within the base radius. There's only two instances where I would consider not building Tree Farms as soon as they became available. Either if I was still pumping units for an expansion or a war, or if I was running towards a future "All Specialists" strategy, which was using only advanced terraforming instead of any forests.

-Jam

	25-05-2004 21:41									#3
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Thanks Jamski. Now on you last paragraph on tree farms, suppose my bases are over size 5 and I am running all specialists, are you saying then no need for tree farms then? I do understand that they boost economy. Say if you have two options, to build a tree farm or a reseach hospital. And all of your specialists are librarains. Would it mean that it's better to build a reseach hospital than a tree farm to get multiple effects on research?

	25-05-2004 22:48									#4
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I have an additional question regarding that clean mineral effect from Tree Farms.

Does that effect only applies to your own faction, or to all bases on Planet?

Sorry if this sounds like hijacking your thread, HongHu. It seems in accordance with the topic to me.

	25-05-2004 22:54									#5
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If all 5 of the pop are Librarians, thats 15 labs. Say the base square gives you another 3 labs (pretty good/average) for 18 labs total.

The +50% from the Research hospital will give you 9 more labs/turn at the cost of 3 ec/turn. On the face of it, that's a good deal - a profit of 6 ec/turn.

However the hospital costs 12 rows ~ 240ec. That will mean it takes upto 40 turns to pay for itself. Of course each time the base grows a size and you can add another Librarian, the hospital increases its profit by 1.5 ec/turn. In this way a size 14 base will only take 12 turns to pay back the construction costs.

Like I said though - for the time in the game that they come they are very expensive. If you put mins and cash into hospitals you are really switching from horizontal expansion to vertical expansion. They represent a BIG strategy choice.

-Jam

	26-05-2004 00:07									#6
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder I have an additional question regarding that clean mineral effect from Tree Farms. Does that effect only applies to your own faction, or to all bases on Planet? Sorry if this sounds like hijacking your thread, HongHu. It seems in accordance with the topic to me.

I think it only applies to your own faction. But I'm not an expert.

And thanks Jameski, that makes great sense.

	26-05-2004 00:25									#7
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99.9% certain it only applies to your own ...
(i've been producing 130+minerals clean and then the AI causes global warming with its 30)

<- dreading somebody saying it doesn't

	26-05-2004 01:01									#8
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Related strategy question: as the Hive I am running out of things to build (almost all my bases are harvesting ~16 min/turn in 2208). I don’t have EE for TFs yet (just got Ecological Engineering, though), but am starting to build research hospitals and holo generators where needed to control drones (some of my non-pop boom Hive bases are up to size 8). As you might guess, I’m running a nasty energy deficit. But, I really need the research, which the energy starved pre-energy restriction lifted and economically challenged Hive has an problem with. I’m keeping my head above water due to commerce from my pacts with Dee (!) and the PKs (!!!!) and treaty with the Angels (!), and mindworm Chiron pearls. The RH drone control is nice (1 drone plus 25% psych bonus) since I’ve maxed out my police (2+nonlethal methods for 3 drone control/base).

With that in mind:

* Are research hospitals a good idea with a maintenance of 3/turn? Or should I just switch to CRUSH AND KILL mode, make a huge military, and smash someone like a bug?

* My energy allocation is 60% lab and 40% economy (with a penalty, of course, at 0 efficiency). I could switch to 50-50, but hate to have breakthroughs of more than 10 turns.

* Or, keep my hybrid strategy and grow like mad, develop my infrastructure to the max, keep bribing my Pact brother/sister, and keep my Evil Enemies the Pirates and Spartans off balance with nettling attacks

As any other faction I’d build them an not worry about the maintenence cost. If available I’d build tree farms first – they cost the same, and TFs have much in the way of advantages. The Hive and Cult, being economically challenged, are a different story.

Hydro

	26-05-2004 01:04									#9
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If I am you, I would switch back to 50-50 allocation, and produce a lot of formers and crawler. Make farm/condensers and boreholes. Use specialists to rake the reseach points up.

	26-05-2004 01:18									#10
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SWITCH TO CRUSH AND KILL MODE.

You have reached the goal of the Hive player. Now you go Fundy-Planned-Power and crush everyone under waves of units. And I mean HUGE WAVES.

Or.

BUILD MORE BASES.

The Hive should expand till it fills the map. And I mean THE WHOLE MAP!

Sorry to capitalise like an insane freak, but this is where the Hive needs to use its advantages - Growth, Industry and Support to either crush or spread like a virus.

I'd like to send you a save from this point as an example, but I can't seem to find the ones I want. I need to clean up my saves folder big time.

-Jam

	26-05-2004 01:46									#11
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Jam – There is probably too much limp wristed Gaian in my Yang, perhaps?

The only problem with Crush and Kill is that I’m a long way from anyone. I’ll have to build fleets of transports (I have three or four on each coast now), and really crank up the volume on military production. Building more crawlers won’t do me much more good until energy restrictions are lifted since I’ve maxed out most mineral harvesting.

But, I see your point. I do have a base on the Spartan’s continent (the other human in the MP) with 10+ defensive and offensive units and a passel of probes. More could be shunted over the modest distance between The Hive and his continent. Perhaps then they can take off in endless waves, and who cares if they die? After all, I can build an impact rover in one or at max 2 turns, and defensive plasma rovers in two or maybe three. Throw in some artillery rovers for sniping and probes and I should be ready to go.

As to bases, I have 17 right now, and building more causes drone issues at my core bases. With PTS new bases they are simply support and production centers, but I don’t want to build them willy nilly in the middle of nowhere (where they’ll just starve down to size 1 anyway). Perhaps building three or four more on the Spartan mainland would be a good idea, though. That would REALLY irritate him, and divert his attention from attacking the soft PKs (my AI ally).

Fundi/Planned/Power – why fundi? Police seems much more useful to control bases, and I dislike the 20% research hit. Plus, Fundi just isn’t Yang in role playing. Plus, the extra support with Fundi is rather irrelevant since I’m producing so many minerals at any give base, and I don't have any extra $$ to be doing lots of base mind control with the fundi probe bonus. If I need more minerals I’ll just guild another crawler, and who cares about fungal blooms. That’s what formers are for (and I might capture some MWs since I control the Manifold Nexus! Hehe – a Planet friendly Yang. It staggers the imagination). I can’t do Power yet, although it would fit perfectly (I’m doing Wealth now).

Send a save if you’ve got it. If you’re interested, my MP game save and password is posted in the Fiction section. Look for 2200. I’d be interested in any comments.

HongHu – I’m about maxed out on crawlers for mineral harvesting (bases at ~16, with a few in eco damage territory), although my newer and smaller bases could use a few. I have an average of 1.5 formers per base, so there are lots of formers roaming around. WP make them much more efficient, effectively increasing the # of formers by 33%.

Hydro

	26-05-2004 03:06									#12
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Well, the main reason for suggesting Fundy was not only the morale boost, but also stopping a cash rich opponent probing your units away so easily

If you have the WP, try making heaps of formers and making roaded land routes to your enemies. This is evil but fun

Go for crush and kill. Enjoy being the big bully. If its a PBEM demand masses of ecs not to go to war. Scare people shitless

Its fun being the big kid in the playground.

-Jam

	26-05-2004 03:17									#13
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A land bridge! And EXCELLENT idea! hehe

I'll start immediately!

	26-05-2004 04:01									#14
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Definitely switch back to 50/50 allocation. Yang needs to control his tech outflow with specialists, because energy just isn't forthcoming, especially before you raise the energy cap. Sure, your tech rate will drop, but that's just more turns you can use to go beat up your enemies.

The land bridge is a good idea, but do remember that raising terrain costs cash, albeit not much.

I wouldn't go with fundy for Yang either, the drone-control and support advantages for Planned/Police are too useful to give up. Instead, Planned/Police/Knowledge is a fine SE setting for Hive aggression. If you're worried about probes, stack your units 3 deep.

	26-05-2004 04:08									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro A land bridge! An EXCELLENT idea! hehe

Ah, well I remember a famous partnergame - big_canuck and me against Tau Ceti and Misotu.

b_c was the Hive (I was Morgan) versus TC's PKs and M's Gaians. It was 2300 or thereabouts and tau's continetn was some 18 spaces away - just far enough to render any noodle forays inoperable, and choppers were damaged by the time they reached a target. Also clearly outside any drop range.

But in 1 turn b_c built a land bridge to TC's continent, roaded it and magtubed it, and then funnelled in 100 or so troops - took 14 of TC's 17 size sixteen bases. Took b_c 2 days to play the turn (I think he had over 300 formers as the Hive)

I'd have loved to have seen tau ceti's face when he opened that turn (Nato Unravelled, I think the PBEM was called)

So, yes, a landbridge can pay dividends

	26-05-2004 05:11									#16
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This is still my favorite SMAC story ever. Wasn't it that it took 2 days to PLAN the turn, to see if it could be done in one turn with the available formers?

-Jam

	26-05-2004 05:37									#17
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Error in the discussion on TreeFarms -

"Like Research Hospitals, they boost income by 50%..."


This is UNLIKE Hospitals, which have no income effect. Fusion Labs and Quantum Labs are the science facilities that also increase ECONOMY.

	26-05-2004 06:29									#18
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For the record:

Research hospital - increase psych by 25%, increase labs by 50%, decrease drones by 1, reduce pop loss due to genetic warfare, cost 120, maint 3

Tree farm - increase psych by 50%, increase economy by 50%, increase forest nut by 1, elim half of terraforming eco damage, cost 120, maint 3

Hybrid forest - increase energy and neut in forest by 1, increase psych and eco by 50%, w/tree farm eliminates terraforming eco damage (cumulative w/tree farm), cost 240, maint 4

	26-05-2004 10:41									#19
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I find Yang a great candidate for specialists with borehole and condensor / farm forming. It reduces your loss from inefficiency, reduces the possible number of drones and allows bases to be specialized as well. Consider perhaps that some bases will be geared toward ECs and others toward Labs and build infrastructure accordingly. Obviously Lab heavy bases will be chock full of Librarians while EC heavy bases will be heavy on the Technicians.

Use pod booming to rack up large numbers of specialists in your core bases while other bases are crawling minerals and only producing colony pods. This will also maximize the value of your facilities as well as your population. Use gang forming to transform your more developed bases quickly.

	26-05-2004 12:57									#20
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quote: Error in the discussion on TreeFarms - "Like Research Hospitals, they boost income by 50%..."

Income, not Econ.

Hospitals boost Labs income by 50%, Treefarms do the same for Econ and Psych.

Sorry if that's unclear. I use income to refer to all 3 the direct 1-to-1 Energy applications.

Hydro - I'd say the basic problem with your setup is the lack of bases. I just read again through your commentary above, and, well... personally I think you have about a third to a quarter of the bases I'd need at this stage of the game.

Of course with that many bases the game is over by 2200ish as everyone drowns under your immense waves of troops. 30+ new Missile Copters every turn makes it an exercise in mopping up.

I appreciate that some people like to play Yang as a hybrid, but really I think this is underusing his talents, and Dee or Santi can do this better. Where Yang shines is in "iron steamrollering" the opposition.

-Jam

	26-05-2004 13:42									#21
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I play Chairman Yang a lot, and nearly always in some sort of Hybrid mode where I do a lot of the builder things. At the beginning of the game, I make a point of keeping a good bit of my focus on Energy, since it is a weakness that can spread a malaise on both your economic and research sectors. Rivers are major resources to the Hive in the early game, and I am also not above doing the farm-solar thing on a rolling moist tile as low as the 1000m category, or even sometimes the below 1000 category if I want the 2 nuts tile bad enough (and you do want to keep your bases growing as fast as possible to make up for probably not being able to pop boom very much, if at all).

Hydro, assuming that you are running Police, you could have as many as 3 police (with non-lethal) units in a base, which would control 6 drones, not just the 3 that you say maxes your cops out. I would normally use fewer than that in favor of some specialists once there was IA to crawl some nuts, but in any case, if you've got the IntelInteg, it should be no problem to get bases up to size 6 with only Cops and a RecComm.

My Hive obsession with Energy extends to building the basic EBank and NetNode facilities (From the point of view of the Hive's income levels, even these facilities are 'High Maintenance') when they are only marginally worth it and of course the Recyc tanks as soon as I am able to get around to acquiring the tech (the techs for the other 2 of course being on the IA beeline).

While your thinking about facilities, entertain the possibility of going for the VW; those free Holos will definitely get you in the mood to build NetNodes. OTOH, the HGP is pretty important if you want to make the most of what little pop booming youi can do short of the CV, but even with the HGP, it won't be long before the number of bases gets too high to make thnking about GA booms more than an academic issue (an if you didn't get the VW, you may not have bothered with the NetNodes, and therefore academic stuff will be of no interest).

Running Wealth is another reasonable thing to do in the early game (if you can still call post-IA the early game); I know it doesn't seem very like the Chairman to do Wealth, but you know, they aren't the Spartans, after all. As long as you are not in a war, the morale hit is not too important and the extra energy in each base comes in pretty handy - the lopping off of yet another column in the build box is hardly necessary, but welcome nonetheless. Wealth will also encourage you to build Creches to mitigate some of the morale hit, which of course will also be very good for gwowth.

It is possible to do a lot of building without interfering much with your expansion. Once there are 7 or 8 bases, some of the interior bases can work on growth and infrastructure, while the newer outer bases take care of CP production; soon they will no longer be outer bases and they can take their turn doing growth and infrastructure. Certainly this will stunt your expansion somewhat, but your population will still be growing in the interior bases, just slower. Taking CPs out from your interior bases is a little inefficient also, as they waste several turns getting to their sites.

If I've gotten to where there are bases bumping up against the ecodamage threshholds before EnvironEcon has appeared, it might be a good tiime to build ResHospitals, as the min production is there, and the extra drone control could probably convert a doctor into a specialist. With a lot of lab facilities and an good energy production, the Chairman can keep up with other Human players in the research race provided they not making a major point of boosting their own research.

Sometimes the tradeoff is between a ResHospital and a Holo. They both have the nasty 3 maint cost, but the Holo costs only half as much to build; it also gives twice as much drone control, but neither of those factors are such big deals to Yang, so getting the research boost, while still getting at least some drone benefits make the RHosps more my cup of tea when playing the Hive at least.

	26-05-2004 18:31									#22
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JM, HongHu, Sik, and Jam – I really do appreciate the advice so I can shift my Hive mindset. One of the great things about SMAX is that it does require different strategies, which are difficult for some of us (e.g. – me) to digest. A couple of questions:

# of bases – If I build tons of bases I’ll end up with a lot more b-drones and inefficiency (bases away from my capital/core) drones. Right now new bases with PTS (size 3) are all drones, which is offset by one from the effects of PTS and two police (1 if it has NLM) and HGP. Each new base also generates drones in existing bases, which will make these bases more and more unstable. So, if I build pods to double the # of bases (to ~30) I can expect new bases to need at least 2 police units (after PTS and HGP) since I’ll probably have double-drones, and at least one more drone at each existing bases. Right? Put in that context that doesn’t sound that bad, up to a point.

[Note – what is interesting it that this is much different from a Large Builder Empire faction with high efficiency. I’m used to Dee with +6 efficiency overall (+2 faction/+2 dem/+2 green), and +8 (which crèche) at any given base. Very large empires can be sustained with ease. This is not true for Yang with 0 efficiency, but Yang’s police state simply shifts how the Empire is administered.]

Support – one of the Hive’s biggest advantages with PS is the extra support, which allows more terraformers and huge armies that don’t burden industrial production. With tons of bases, aren’t these support slots taken up by police/garrison units, mitigating the Yang Horde?

NLM – I thought that non-lethal methods is only effective on one garrison per base, meaning that with a police rating of 2 you can have 3 garrisons to control 3 drones, and one more drone control with NLM (I miss-spoke earlier). If I can control 6 drones with 3 garrisons each with NLM that would be huge! This means I can effectively build as many bases as I want without significant fear of drones running riot. It’ll test this.

VW – the PKs got this, but I did get HGP and WP. Having a marginal tech rate has its problems, especially since we’re using non-directed research.

Energy – rivers are always key for any faction, and I’ve drilled to aquifer after I got WP to goose energy in my forests a bit. Energy specials are also key. This is where Wealth kicks in, since it gives each base 1 more energy, which for the Hive is a real kick for smallish bases (size 1 bases frequently produce no energy at all). RTs are key early facilities to goose energy at size 1 and 2 bases. With bigger bases Wealth may not be as important if there is adequate terraforming.

Crawlers – I’m harvesting mins to at or just above eco damage levels, then crawlering food where I can. Flat rainy tiles are good for this, I’ve found, for the Hive before TFs. Heck, one size 8 base has 12 surplus food/turn w/o TFs, yielding explosive growth. Only the capital The Hive is crawlering energy in forests, but this is to protect the base from sea assault since these bases are by the coast (an no one has amphib yet).

Facilities – Ebanks are medium to low priority for me since with my economy the 1 maint may not pay for itself. I also may get Planetary Energy Grid, so I hate to build EBs when I may get them for free. My priority list (in order) is: small bases RT; medium bases (size 4+) RC and Crèche and maybe NN if has good energy; large bases (size 5+) NN; primary bases (size 7+) RH, maybe Holo and EB. Obviously, this is Hybrid bordering on Builder.

Specialists – I’m a novice here, and although I’ve experimented I’ve typically have only used for drone control. I’ll rectify this immediately since this may allow me to bump lab output where my research is good (eg – have NN and RH) when crawlering food.

PopBoom – I’ve tried goosing my energy allocation to up to 20% Psych, and have managed a mini-pop boom at two bases from size 4 to 5 when using 2 doctors. Obviously, this only works when there are lots of extra nutrients. This may work better when my base psych is better (TFs and maybe RH). Considering my energy income, 10 or 20% Psych can’t be maintained very long.

PodBoom – I’ve done this a few times at critical bases (The Hive), but it seems like a large investment for relatively little gain.

Attitude – I’m not a Blood-Makes-Grass-Grow (*Hey! This could be an ecologically sensitive Gaian position!*) type of person, so this will take some work. I’ve approached this game as a hybrid with the philosophy that Yang (ever thoughtful, if amoral) will do what is necessary to make sure humanity survives, using his vision of the future, of course. Being initially isolated going to a war footing was wasteful and inefficient. But, as technology and resources improve this is no longer true, requiring a dramatic shift in priorities (as is appropriate for a hybrid).

Again, thanks MUCH for all the advice. I will experiment with all these great ideas.

Hydro

P.S. – HongHu – sorry for hijacking your thread. Hope you don’t mind…to much.

	26-05-2004 19:09									#23
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Hydro - a simple but effective trick is to build 1-1-1(police) units and send them to base sites ahead of time. Then when the base is built it has auto Drone quelling of 3 (PTS and police) and the extra talent from the HGP. Even wih heavy ineffiecency the base will do ok. The trick is to have the police unit ready before time.

Crawled nuts will let you make doctors without worries, or other specialists. I think the Hive is the faction with the least problems with Drone control throughout the game. Good police, best benefits from the LV, can nervestaple early game and stay "in character"

-Jam

	26-05-2004 19:56									#24
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One thing about pop booming and pod booming. I found it pretty hard to pop boom for Yang. In early stage it may do so through golden age, but when you get to mid stage you really can't rely upon this. This of couse makes the perm pop booming SP (forgot the name) a must for you.

However, if you've got PTS, I don't see pop growing to be a too big of a problem. You simply expand, and expand. The real problem is that you only have 3 pop when you set up your new base. Even with farm/condensors it needs some time to grow to size 5 where you could utilize specialist. Pop factory is a very good idea for you I think. Make one or two boreholes and a farm/condensor around this factory, put 2 workers on boreholes and 1 on farm to support the 3 pop. Then you'd be able to pop out 1 colony pod every turn with a full rush every time. You send the colony pod to the bases where pop size is 4 to make it 5. You can help two bases every 3 turns this way since the third turn you'll have to rebuild your factory.

ps. I don't mind your "threadjacking" at all. This kind of discussions benefit us all.

	26-05-2004 20:32									#25
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Just as an aside, an often overlooked maintenance feature lies with the Command Center. It's costs increase with the availability of better level reactors.

(Equal to the reactor level, but never more than 1/2 DIFF rounded up)

So, at Transcend level, the Command Center costs:

1 if only fission available
2 when Fusion becomes available
3 for Quantum or higher

We (I, at least) often ignore trying for the Command Nexus, but if playing a game likely to last a few hundred years it soon pays for itself

G.

	26-05-2004 20:37									#26
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Goog - My Hive built CN, which counteracts Wealth nicely. I'm REALLY glad I don't have to build CCs, or my economy would really be hosed. I'd likely have to build one or two and then take the hit on lower morale troopers (making up in sheer volume what I lack in quality - which is opposite of the Spartans).

I've heard the maintenance cost increases, but by the time that part of the game rolls around I usually don't notice. Or, I'm pleased to capture it from some other undeserving faction and am thrilled to sell off my strategically build Command Centers, saving ECs and generating a nice windfall.

Hydro

	27-05-2004 12:27									#27
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Oh, and thanks HongHu for the thread title. I'm going to start calling my girlfriend "Your High Maintainess". When she asks me to do something I'll answer, "Yes Your High Mainteness" etc.

	27-05-2004 12:49									#28
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Finally, Sikander has an idea I can use.

	27-05-2004 20:44									#29
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A few postscripts:

Specialists: Librarians made a HUGE difference in my research rates, particularly where there was a good multiplier effect from NNs and RHs! Just using a few boosted research by 10 percent, and with a little aggressive food crawlering this could go up even more. As I mentioned, I never got much benefit in other games (primarily as Dee), but when no energy is lost and existing labs are multiplied this is huge.

Energy Allocation: I switched back to 50-50, and an energy deficit is no longer a problem. Science didn’t drop that much. The key is that the inefficiency loss become more critical as there is more energy to lose, so low efficiency factions can realistically only use this with minimal loss early in the game (Gaians and Cyborgs or factions with high SE-based efficiency can and should use this aggressively the whole game)

Drones: Founding a single new base is causing multiple drones in multiple bases. I’ll have to dig up threads on this. I recall there was one posted in the last month or so. If this is true then there is a huge diminishing returns with extra bases (I got my second efficiency warning at 20 bases; does this cause 2 drones per new base?)

Police and NLM: YES, NLM can be used with every police unit. Using PS and having 3 garrisons w/NLM controls 6 drones! WOW! I was so thrilled to find this that I almost scrapped the few holo generators I have built. But, then these are only at large bases, an it frees up units to do other things.

Terraforming: I’ve now decided that after nutrient restrictions are lifted and crawlers are available that flat rainy tiles should have farms. Yes, forests are nice, but 3+ neuts is much better. As long as the bases aren’t really close this is a good deal since there are plenty of tiles to harvest.

Again, thanks for all the good advice…

Hydro

	27-05-2004 20:56									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro Drones: Founding a single new base is causing multiple drones in multiple bases.

Unless you're using psych to quell your drones, which seems unlikely with the Hive, or unless you still have the possibility to popboom with Golden Ages, which is no longer possible in your game IIRC, do extra b-drones really matter? Police and drone facilities are just as effective in making normal drones and superdrones into workers. It's only when using psych that superdrones first need to be converted to normal drones before being converted to workers.

Btw, who is the Spartan opponent in your game? Someone of this forum?