26-05-2004 20:35									#31
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Che: I understand where you are coming from, but it does strain credulity to suggest that the NYT is carrying the conservatives' water.

	26-05-2004 20:40									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DanS See, there you go. Colon is anticipating the new New York Times line. Too bad it just ain't true.

I couldn't care less about the NYT. However it'd be a bit hypocritical to lambast the paper for facing up mistakes to perform a tactical 180° turn, while the Bush administration doesn't even bother to do any such thing.

	26-05-2004 20:43									#33
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Colon: Who was lambasting the paper for facing up to its mistakes? I think only che was. Rather, the paper was being criticized for criticizing Bush's actions when it was doing the same thing.

Your line and the assumed new line from the NYT are facile at best. Very slippery.

	26-05-2004 20:45									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Che: I understand where you are coming from, but it does strain credulity to suggest that the NYT is carrying the conservatives' water.

I'm laying it on a little thick to disprove a point. It's hardly the great liberal standard that it is claimed to be. As the paper of record, it's standards and integrity have gotten steadily worse.

On the other hand, I suppose we should be impressed at the amount of house lceaning that's been going on there. Whether it means the Times will get better remains to be seen.

	26-05-2004 20:46									#35
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When people propagate something that isn't the truth... in my world, that's lying. For those of you that are parents, if your children acted the way the Bush admin and press did pre-War... you'd be scolding your children for lying.

I'm disturbed at the fact that people don't want to hold the media or the president accountable for the mistakes they made. How many more billions must be wasted? How many more young men and women have to die?

Shame on those making excuses. Shame.

	26-05-2004 20:55									#36
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Che: The NYT is only the left's paper of record. Precious few conservatives read it. The Wall Street Journal has a 60% higher circulation.

I think you would have to delve deep into the left's psyche for hints of self-destruction or self-abuse to make your theory work.

	26-05-2004 20:57									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Che: The NYT is only the left's paper of record.

Hardly. The left has long considered the Times suspect. If you mean liberals, perhaps. It is other journalists, however, who consider the Times to be the PoR, also libraries, researchers, etc.

	26-05-2004 20:58									#38
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I DanSed you. The Wall Street Journal is the center-right's paper of record.

	26-05-2004 20:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I DanSed you. The Wall Street Journal is the center-right's paper of record.

WSJ is about as center as the Guardian...

	26-05-2004 21:01									#40
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I like the Washington Post.

	26-05-2004 21:02									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Colon: Who was lambasting the paper for facing up to its mistakes? I think only che was. Rather, the paper was being criticized for criticizing Bush's actions when it was doing the same thing. Your line and the assumed new line from the NYT are facile at best. Very slippery.

You said you could look at it cynically, that they're coming clean to have a better position to criticize Bush. My point is that such cynicism is not at order because the Bush administration tends to perform 180° turns without the nominal decency to admit their previous course was wrong.

	26-05-2004 21:02									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I like the Washington Post.

	26-05-2004 21:03									#43
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Both the WashPost and NYT require registration. Therefore I hate them.

-Arrian

	26-05-2004 21:03									#44
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Even as a die-hard liberal, I don't care much for the Times. But reporting that was "insufficiently challenged" or "allowed to stand" is not the same as lying. It just makes the Times look worse than it already is.

	26-05-2004 21:05									#45
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The Washington Post is good, but doesn't have enough breadth to be a paper of record. It's mostly Washington-centric.

quote: the Bush administration tends to perform 180° turns without the nominal decency to admit their previous course was wrong

And I'm saying that's just not so. Not on this subject.

	26-05-2004 21:07									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I DanSed you. The Wall Street Journal is the center-right's paper of record.

The WSJ has a similar structure to the NYT. Liberal leaning reporters with a right leaning op/ed staff, though in the case of the WSJ, it's reactionary, rather than conservative.

	26-05-2004 21:08									#47
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You are wise, as always, Dan, to be so demanding.

And, your demands having been so splendidly met, you will have no trouble showing me examples of news stories appearing in your national press in which the tittle tattle obtained by the reporter has been checked back to the primary source.

Or, not wishing to be too demanding, one such in all your time reading your most scrupulous organs will suffice.

I can already show you a good few examples of what you actually get - along with everyone else - because they appear at the head of this thread. Try reconciling the certainties screeched in the headlines with the acknowledgment of tittle tattle buried in the attributions. Demand of yourself that you work out whether the eye catching or the accurate is of more interest to the editor concerned.

And what you will find, if you search out or demand sight of, all the uncited cases which the newspaper sanctimoniously congratulates itself upon, is what everyone else has already found. They are no different.

There do seem to be a couple of actual differences between your newspapers and ours - yours found a more effective way to avoid libel laws. So they publish rubbish about individuals even more readily. And secondly, if those from your side of the pond are equally as self satisfied as some of those appearing in this thread they are also a good deal more smug.

	26-05-2004 21:10									#48
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Reactionary? The WSJ?

The WSJ successfully straddles the constituencies of the Republican party. Conservatives + Main Street Republicans who are called conservatives but who are really centrist-oriented + Rockefeller Republicans who are centrists.

	26-05-2004 21:11									#49
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quote: The Washington Post is good, but doesn't have enough breadth to be a paper of record. It's mostly Washington-centric.

That's funny. I always found the Post to be far less Washington-centric than the Times is New York centric...

	26-05-2004 21:12									#50
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Lied.

As in, "reported what we were told, but we didn't guess at the time that some of the people who told us this stuff were spinning it in their favor."

There's a bit of a difference between "lying" and "reporting what you believe to be true at the time, but later admitting that you've since found out some of those people were lying"

Does this mean Saddam was a nice guy after all?

	26-05-2004 21:14									#51
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Washington is no New York City, however. The Washington Post is a lot of political and government inside baseball. Good stuff, but not a paper of record.

	26-05-2004 21:16									#52
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As in, "reported what we were told, but we didn't guess at the time that some of the people who told us this stuff were spinning it in their favor."

As in, we know these guys have serious biases, but we're not gonna bother to check it out. we'll just let our paper be their mouthpiece.

	26-05-2004 21:19									#53
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quote: The Washington Post is a lot of political and government inside baseball.

I guess I find this kind of news to be a lot more interesting and useful than an exhaustive review of the latest Broadway plays...

quote: Washington is no New York City, however.

Consider yourself lucky.

	26-05-2004 21:21									#54
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quote: And, your demands having been so splendidly met, you will have no trouble showing me examples of news stories appearing in your national press in which the tittle tattle obtained by the reporter has been checked back to the primary source.

You don't look very hard, apparently. Bob Woodward from the Washington Post always seems to source his articles to the nines. That doesn't mean everything he says is correct, of course.

	26-05-2004 21:22									#55
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quote: Conservatives defending the NY Times.

Not really a conservative, but I've always liked the NY Times. Every paper has a bias, but at least the NY Times likes to cover things not in the US (and give them substantial play). That endears me to them.

	26-05-2004 21:24									#56
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The NYT has outstanding international reporting and does many things far better than any other U.S. paper. Since it's the big dog, I guess people will try to dump on it as much as possible, but if other U.S. papers were under such scrutiny (and such high-profile targets of certain political persuasions), I doubt fair any better, and probably far worse.

	26-05-2004 21:25									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The Washington Post is good, but doesn't have enough breadth to be a paper of record. It's mostly Washington-centric.

Most of the stuff that happens in the world is

	26-05-2004 21:28									#58
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I think that "Washington is the center of the world" stuff is massively overblown.

	26-05-2004 21:28									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DanS And I'm saying that's just not so. Not on this subject.

Well, I wasn't talking about the Chalabi case. Just the manner of performing 180° turns.

	26-05-2004 21:29									#60
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quote: The NYT has outstanding international reporting and does many things far better than any other U.S. paper.

Their "outstanding" international reporting blew this one big-time. They recognize this.