Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > NY Times Admits it Lied to Help Bush
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (4): [ 1   2   3   4   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
Thumbs down  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:36 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
NY Times Admits it Lied to Help Bush Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/i..._NOTE.html?8dpc

The Times and Iraq

Over the last year this newspaper has shone the bright light of hindsight on decisions that led the United States into Iraq. We have examined the failings of American and allied intelligence, especially on the issue of Iraq's weapons and possible Iraqi connections to international terrorists. We have studied the allegations of official gullibility and hype. It is past time we turned the same light on ourselves.

In doing so — reviewing hundreds of articles written during the prelude to war and into the early stages of the occupation — we found an enormous amount of journalism that we are proud of. In most cases, what we reported was an accurate reflection of the state of our knowledge at the time, much of it painstakingly extracted from intelligence agencies that were themselves dependent on sketchy information. And where those articles included incomplete information or pointed in a wrong direction, they were later overtaken by more and stronger information. That is how news coverage normally unfolds.

But we have found a number of instances of coverage that was not as rigorous as it should have been. In some cases, information that was controversial then, and seems questionable now, was insufficiently qualified or allowed to stand unchallenged. Looking back, we wish we had been more aggressive in re-examining the claims as new evidence emerged — or failed to emerge.

The problematic articles varied in authorship and subject matter, but many shared a common feature. They depended at least in part on information from a circle of Iraqi informants, defectors and exiles bent on "regime change" in Iraq, people whose credibility has come under increasing public debate in recent weeks. (The most prominent of the anti-Saddam campaigners, Ahmad Chalabi, has been named as an occasional source in Times articles since at least 1991, and has introduced reporters to other exiles. He became a favorite of hard-liners within the Bush administration and a paid broker of information from Iraqi exiles, until his payments were cut off last week.) Complicating matters for journalists, the accounts of these exiles were often eagerly confirmed by United States officials convinced of the need to intervene in Iraq. Administration officials now acknowledge that they sometimes fell for misinformation from these exile sources. So did many news organizations — in particular, this one.

Some critics of our coverage during that time have focused blame on individual reporters. Our examination, however, indicates that the problem was more complicated. Editors at several levels who should have been challenging reporters and pressing for more skepticism were perhaps too intent on rushing scoops into the paper. Accounts of Iraqi defectors were not always weighed against their strong desire to have Saddam Hussein ousted. Articles based on dire claims about Iraq tended to get prominent display, while follow-up articles that called the original ones into question were sometimes buried. In some cases, there was no follow-up at all.

On Oct. 26 and Nov. 8, 2001, for example, Page 1 articles cited Iraqi defectors who described a secret Iraqi camp where Islamic terrorists were trained and biological weapons produced. These accounts have never been independently verified.

On Dec. 20, 2001, another front-page article began, "An Iraqi defector who described himself as a civil engineer said he personally worked on renovations of secret facilities for biological, chemical and nuclear weapons in underground wells, private villas and under the Saddam Hussein Hospital in Baghdad as recently as a year ago." Knight Ridder Newspapers reported last week that American officials took that defector — his name is Adnan Ihsan Saeed al-Haideri — to Iraq earlier this year to point out the sites where he claimed to have worked, and that the officials failed to find evidence of their use for weapons programs. It is still possible that chemical or biological weapons will be unearthed in Iraq, but in this case it looks as if we, along with the administration, were taken in. And until now we have not reported that to our readers.

On Sept. 8, 2002, the lead article of the paper was headlined "U.S. Says Hussein Intensified Quest for A-Bomb Parts." That report concerned the aluminum tubes that the administration advertised insistently as components for the manufacture of nuclear weapons fuel. The claim came not from defectors but from the best American intelligence sources available at the time. Still, it should have been presented more cautiously. There were hints that the usefulness of the tubes in making nuclear fuel was not a sure thing, but the hints were buried deep, 1,700 words into a 3,600-word article. Administration officials were allowed to hold forth at length on why this evidence of Iraq's nuclear intentions demanded that Saddam Hussein be dislodged from power: "The first sign of a `smoking gun,' they argue, may be a mushroom cloud."

Five days later, The Times reporters learned that the tubes were in fact a subject of debate among intelligence agencies. The misgivings appeared deep in an article on Page A13, under a headline that gave no inkling that we were revising our earlier view ("White House Lists Iraq Steps to Build Banned Weapons"). The Times gave voice to skeptics of the tubes on Jan. 9, when the key piece of evidence was challenged by the International Atomic Energy Agency. That challenge was reported on Page A10; it might well have belonged on Page A1.

On April 21, 2003, as American weapons-hunters followed American troops into Iraq, another front-page article declared, "Illicit Arms Kept Till Eve of War, an Iraqi Scientist Is Said to Assert." It began this way: "A scientist who claims to have worked in Iraq's chemical weapons program for more than a decade has told an American military team that Iraq destroyed chemical weapons and biological warfare equipment only days before the war began, members of the team said."

The informant also claimed that Iraq had sent unconventional weapons to Syria and had been cooperating with Al Qaeda — two claims that were then, and remain, highly controversial. But the tone of the article suggested that this Iraqi "scientist" — who in a later article described himself as an official of military intelligence — had provided the justification the Americans had been seeking for the invasion.

The Times never followed up on the veracity of this source or the attempts to verify his claims.

A sample of the coverage, including the articles mentioned here, is online at nytimes.com/critique. Readers will also find there a detailed discussion written for The New York Review of Books last month by Michael Gordon, military affairs correspondent of The Times, about the aluminum tubes report. Responding to the review's critique of Iraq coverage, his statement could serve as a primer on the complexities of such intelligence reporting.

We consider the story of Iraq's weapons, and of the pattern of misinformation, to be unfinished business. And we fully intend to continue aggressive reporting aimed at letting the record straight.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:40
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

"Lied"?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:42 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Lied.

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:45 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

So the "liberal" media spread Bush & friends propaganda and disinformation in order to be "rushing scoops into the paper."

(damn, why isn't there a smiley that's sadly shaking its head in disapproval?)

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:46
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

People pay attention to the Times?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:47
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
"Lied"?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:49
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by Victor Galis
(damn, why isn't there a smiley that's sadly shaking its head in disapproval?)
Let it never be said I never did anything for you:

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:50
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The NY Times took the sources it had and wrote stories about what they told the paper. I don't see how this is 'lying to help Bush' (a che thread title which is misleading! STOP THE PRESSES! ). It took scoops and later on said we should have investigated these sources in more detail and focused less on getting the scoop.

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:50
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

"NY Times admits that it's journalism was shoddy."

But that isn't quite as catchy.

-Arrian

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:51
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
"NY Times admits that it's journalism was shoddy."

But that isn't quite as catchy.
The general reaction would have been "Duh!" in that case.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:52
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

"Lied" suggests a deliberate altering or misrepresentation of facts.

"to help Bush" suggests that whatever was done, was done specifically to aid the President.

I don't see either contention supported by the article.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:52 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It focused on pushing pro-Bush stories while relaating more serious investigations to the back pages. It deliberatley manipulated the news in a way that helped push the country towards war.

That's lying.

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:53
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Negative, ghostrider. That is not lying. That's media bias, slant, and shoddy journalism. But it's not lying.

Why the **** am I defending the NY Times?

-Arrian

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:55
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

che:

Once again you deliberately manipulate the 'facts' to get the result you want. Suuuuure, the NY Times lied to help Bush. It deliberatly manipulated the news to get a war. I wonder why I even read any of your posts anymore.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:56
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Where in the article does it say that there were manipulations, deliberate or otherwise?

...and how does one not deliberately manipulate, anyway?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:57 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

quote:
Articles based on dire claims about Iraq tended to get prominent display, while follow-up articles that called the original ones into question were sometimes buried. In some cases, there was no follow-up at all.


They pushed poorly sourced, specious claims, and buried more thorough research which discredited earlier claims.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:57
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I wonder why I even read any of your posts anymore.
It amuses you. Admit it.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 19:59
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Articles based on dire claims about Iraq tended to get prominent display, while follow-up articles that called the original ones into question were sometimes buried. In some cases, there was no follow-up at all.



*GASP* Big articles based on fresh sources get put on the front page, while follow up ones, based on events a few weeks ago are buried in the paper! That NEVER happens!

quote:
It amuses you. Admit it.


Ok fine... but I wonder how people can get like this sometimes.

Edan is offline Edan
Chieftain

Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:00
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
"NY Times admits that it's journalism was shoddy."


Yep. (Again )

East Street Trader is offline East Street Trader
Prince
London, United Kingdom
Jun 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:04
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

The article leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Because it implies that this newspaper does some substantial amount of painstaking checking of facts but, Homer being entitled occasionally to nod, on some limited number of occasions forgot to do so.

That is bullshit. It does what every other newspaper does - it publishes whatever stuff it's reporters "sources" can provide. Under cover (when it gets around to remembering to include it) of some flimsy attribution.

If you get the chance to see a daily newspaper up close what hits you in the eye is how hugely hungry the presses are for material. They just gobble stuff up. So the life of reporters and sub editors and so on is lived at a terrifyingly fast pace just gathering in and organising as high a volume of stuff as they can get their hands on.

The notion that they maturely deliberate or go back and check background facts is remote. If there is someone involved who can hit back - or the story will attract enough attention so that a retraction cannot just be tucked away at the bottom of page six - they may try to "confirm" a story from a second source before printing. (A nearly worthless precaution bearing in mind the dubious nature of those who peddle tittle tattle).

We were treated to a close examination of the process in the enquiry recently concluded here (the UK). The journalist concerned was roundly criticised for choosing to publish the material he obtained so as to give the worst possible aspect to the governmnet's conduct but what passed without a single comment was the fact that his basic approach was to conduct one short interview on tape and then publish everything that was said (as he had chosen to hear it) entirely uncritically. And it was quite right for this to pass un-noticed. it is what journalist do. As they always have.

"Coverage not as rigorous as it should have been" indeed. Sanctimonious, self important, two faced claptrap.

Colon is offline Colon
Emperor
Antwerp, Colon's Chocolate Canard Country
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:06
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Conservatives defending the NY Times. Good job che.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:07 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Colon
Conservatives defending the NY Times. Good job che.


The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:09
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No, no, it's still biased and inaccurate -- we're just saying that they haven't quite sunk to the level of the Weekly World News.

Yet.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:12 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

You were pwnzed!!!!

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:14
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yea sure. You were just trolling. Whatever. Smells like a backtrack to me.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:19 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

The context here is that The New York Times was getting a lot of flak in recent days from conservatives because it was criticizing the Bush administration for putting too much stock in Chalabi, but was using him as a main source itself. The Times just came clean and admitted their mistake.

You could look at this cynically and say that now The Times will criticize the Bush administration for not coming clean for relying on Chalabi, while The Times has come clean. That's par for the course.

quote:
And it was quite right for this to pass un-noticed. it is what journalist do.


Maybe in the UK. We demand more of our journalists in the US. Perhaps that is unrealistic, but that's what we do. Print journalism in the US doesn't seem nearly as tabloid as the UK press.

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:19
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

quote:
Sanctimonious, self important, two faced claptrap.


It is the NYT, after all.

-Arrian

Colon is offline Colon
Emperor
Antwerp, Colon's Chocolate Canard Country
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:24
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote:
Originally posted by DanS
The context here is that The New York Times was getting a lot of flak in recent days from conservatives because it was criticizing the Bush administration for putting too much stock in Chalabi, but was using him as a main source itself. The Times just came clean and admitted their mistake.

You could look at this cynically and say that now The Times will criticize the Bush administration for not coming clean for relying on Chalabi, while The Times has come clean. That's par for the course.


Yeah well, it's not like the Bush administration had ever managed to admit a mistake, even when it does a 180° turn.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:28 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

See, there you go. Colon is anticipating the new New York Times line.

Too bad it just ain't true.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:32 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

All trolling aside, The NYT has a serious credibility problem. Jason Blair was merely icing on the cake. More problematically is that the conservative editorship has taken many right-wing claims at face value, giving them a lot of promotion over the last decade, when there wasn't evidence to suport the accusations.

Whitewater: false
Wen Ho Lee: false
WMDs in Iraq: false

All major stories which advanced the cause of the conservatives. Meanwhile, stoies which would have discredited conservatives have been downplayed or there was an attempt on the part of the paper to discredt them.

Bush's military record
CIA cocaine
The massacres by Central American governments in the 80s
and so on.

Hardly the bastion of liberalism or integrity either spectrum supposes.

 
Pages (4): [ 1   2   3   4   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:36.
Apolyton Time is 00:36.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0588 seconds (88.86% PHP - 11.14% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net