27-05-2004 19:44									#1
	Standard Clash Tech Tree Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

***Please do not post in this thread unless it is related to the overall development of the tech tree. I will create seperate threads for discussion on each individual age. For now, other than general discussion on the overall tree, this thread will be here to get my current workings out into the public and as a general "work table" for me.

Previous Tech Discussion

For informational purposes I’ll list a few key items needed to understand the discussions below:
1. Tech Tiers
When I refer to Tech Tiers, these are the 4 levels of technologies in the tech model which are, from broadest to narrowest: Theory Techs, Field Techs, Skill Techs, and Applications.
2. Ages
When I refer to Ages, the time periods I’m referring to are the following:
Age/ Dates
Stone Age/ 9001BC or earlier
Copper Age/ 9000BC-3750BC
Bronze Age/ 3750BC-1100BC
Iron Age/ 1100BC-500AD
Middle Ages/ 501AD-1425
The Renaissance/ 1426-1650
Age of Reason/ 1651-1750
Industrial Revolution/ 1751-1840
Age of Steam/ 1841-1900
Electric Age/ 1901-1945
Atomic Age/ 1946-1980
Information Age/ 1981-2000+
*Please note that these dates are not 100% historical, depending on what/who your source is, but since historians often differ on the exact ending and starting dates of different eras, so I had to choose. Also, these Ages are not used in the game in any way, they are merely here to help narrow down and quantify thousands of years of history.


Standard Clash Tech Tree

You will notice that the Stone Age is included here as the time before 9000BC, and since Clash starts in 9000BC, yes that means most civs will start out with some tech. The reason for not starting everything at 0 is that I, and just about everyone else, I would suspect, expects a city-building civilization to have some limited technology already, such as some tiny amount of Construction for that whole city-building thing. These Stone Age technologies will also allow Nomadic civs to advance scientifically, without forcing them into “civilization” immediately, as they will be prerequisites for many of the early military Applications such as Spearman, Horseman, and Swordsman.

***Also, Prostitution is listed as a "tech" for the copper age. The reason I did this was because it was the first mention of it I could find and it has health effects, especially on armies, since this is where most prostitution occured. I would hope that we are all "adult" enough to discuss this openly and properly.

Last edited by alms66 on 08-06-2004 at 05:44

	27-05-2004 19:44									#2
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*Please note that I will eventually come back and divide these into Applications, Skill Techs, Field Techs and Theory Techs.*


Stone Age Technologies:


Adze
Agriculture
Animal Fat Oil
Animal Herding
Atlatl
Axe
Backpack
Barter
Basketry
Bead working
Beads
Bow and Arrow
Bow Drill
Bowl
Bracers
Bread
Burial Ground
Cave dwelling
Cave Painting
Ceramics
Ceremonial Burial
Cheese Making
Chisel
Club
Communal Dwelling
Coracle
Crutches
Cuirass
Cultivation
Dancing
Dog Sled
Domestication
Drinking Horn
Drum
Dugout Canoe
Dyeing
Earth Fired Pottery
Family Dwelling
Fence
Fire
Fire-starting Bow
Fish Hooks
Fish Trap
Fishing Nets
Fishing Pole
Flint Working
Flour
Food Preservation
Funerary Customs
Furniture
Gathering
Gauntlets
Grave
Greaves
Hammer
Harpoon
Hearthstone
Helmet
Hide
Horn Signal
Hunting
Javelin
Jewelry
Kiln
Kiln Fired Pottery
Knife
Ladle
Language
Leather
Lever
Mallet
Mast
Mortar & Pestle
Mud Brick
Music
Needles
Oars
Paddle
Paint
Pan Pipes
Pauldrons
Permanent Settlements
Pick
Pick Axe
Pins
Pottery
Pulley
Raft
Rattle
Reed Boat
Reed Brick
Reed Construction
Reed Raft
Religion
Rope
Rotary Drill
Sail
Saw
Settling
Shield
Sinew
Skin Clothing
Skis
Sled
Sledge
Snowshoes
Spear
Spindle
Spinning
Spoon
Stone Brick
Stone Knapping
Stone Lamp
Sun-dried Brick
Tanning
Tent
Territory
Torch
Traps
Trepanation
Trident
Urbanization
Weaving
Wood Axe

Last edited by alms66 on 28-05-2004 at 16:34

	27-05-2004 19:45									#3
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*Please note that I will eventually divide these into Applications, Skill Techs, Field Techs and Theory Techs.*


Copper Age Technologies:


Alphabet
Anchor
Annealing
Anvil
Ard
Arithmetic
Auger
Awl
Balance
Bloomery
Boat
Brewing
Brick
Brick Construction
Brick Palisades
Bridle
Canal
Capitol City
Casting
City
City Walls
Clay Lamps
Copper Working
Diplomacy
Dynasty
Emissaries
Faience
Farm
Fermentation
Flax Oil
Forge
Glass Making
Glass working
Government
Grindstone
Horse Domestication
Horse Riding
Irrigation
Jettons
Ladder
Linen
Longboat
Loom
Marketplace
Midwifery
Olive Oil
Ox Cart
Pan Mining
Phonogram
Pictogram
Prostitution
Saddle
Shovel
Shrine
Slavery
Smelting
Soap
Stilts
Stone Palisades
Stone Quarry
Stone working
Sundial
Taxation
Terrace Farming
Treaty
Walls
Wedge
Wheel
Wine
Wood Construction
Wooden Hoe
Wooden Palisades
Wooden Plow

Last edited by alms66 on 28-05-2004 at 16:49

	27-05-2004 19:46									#4
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*Please note that I will eventually divide these into Applications, Skill Techs, Field Techs and Theory Techs.*


Bronze Age Technologies:


Anatomy
Architecture
Barracks
Bronze Hoe
Bronze Plow
Bronze Working
Candle
Caravan
Carpenter's Square
Caste System
Chariot
City States
Clay Tablets
Code of Laws
Coins
Court
Education
Fortress
Horseshoes
Ink
Jurisprudence
Mathematics
Mining
Mirror
Numbering System
Papyrus
Parchment
Pyramids
Sickles
Spoked Wheel
Spying
Sword
Tin Working
Towers
Trading Post
Vellum
War Chariots
Writing

Last edited by alms66 on 28-05-2004 at 16:50

	27-05-2004 19:47									#5
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*Please note that I will eventually divide these into Applications, Skill Techs, Field Techs and Theory Techs.*

Iron Age Technologies:


Academy
Amphitheater
Aqueduct
Arch
Arena
Bellows
Books
Bridge
Bridge Building
Chain
Charcoal
Colonization
Crowbar
Cymbals
File
Force Pump
Glass Blowing
Harp
Imperialism
Iron Hoe
Iron Plow
Keystone
Lute
Lyre
Mapmaking
Nails
Navigation
Reliquary
Road
Road Building
Roman Republic
School
Scientific Method
Sea Exploration
Speculative Philosophy
Steel
Steel working
Taximeter
Tumbler Lock
Tunnel Building
Urban Planning
Water Clock
Weaving Loom

Last edited by alms66 on 28-05-2004 at 16:39

	27-05-2004 19:47									#6
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Middle Ages

Reserved...

	27-05-2004 19:48									#7
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The Renaissance

Reserved...

	27-05-2004 19:49									#8
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Age of Reason

Reserved...

	27-05-2004 20:01									#9
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Industrial Revolution

Reserved...

	27-05-2004 20:02									#10
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Age of Steam

Reserved...

	27-05-2004 20:02									#11
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Electric Age

Reserved...

	27-05-2004 20:03									#12
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Atomic Age

Reserved...

	27-05-2004 20:04									#13
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Information Age

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	27-05-2004 20:05									#14
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Unclassified Technologies:

Astrolabe
Astronomy
Athenian Democracy
Ballista
Barge
Barrel
Battering Ram
Bireme
Botany
Bucket Chain
Calendar
Caltrops
Camel Riding
Carrier Pigeons
Cartography
Cataphracts
Catapult
Combat Nets
Compass
Compound Pulley
Concrete
Crossbow
Cryptography
Cyrograph
Dioptra
Discovery of pi
Dock
Door Lock
Drama
Dry Dock
Elephant Riding
Entomology
Epidemiology
Epizotiology
Flame Thrower
Flat-bottom Hull
Formal Education
Fractions
Geography
Geometry
Granary
Harbor
King
Library
Lighthouse
Mausoleum
Metallurgy
Microbiology
Mills
Monarchy
Monument
Neurology
Ocean Exploration
Olympic Games
Outpost
Paper
Paper Money
Philosophy
Pigeon Post
Piston
Port
Potter's Wheel
Pozzolana
Pump
Sailing Hull
Screw Pump
Scrolls
Ship
Shipborne Artillery
Ship's Ram
Siege Tower
Signaling
Skytale
Smithing
Stirrup
Stone Tablets
Temple
Theater
Tomb
Toxicology
Triangulation
Trireme
Vassalage
Waterwheel
Zero

Last edited by alms66 on 28-05-2004 at 16:52

	27-05-2004 20:06									#15
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****NOTE****
If you see a tech in the Unclassified Technologies section that you think should go into a certain Age, please post the following, replacing "thisTech" with the actual tech in question and "thisAge" with the actual Age in question.

-Thanks
-The Management

Template:

thisTech
belongs in
thisAge
Reference:
List any worthy references here.

Last edited by alms66 on 28-05-2004 at 17:43

	28-05-2004 15:29									#16
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I'm just posting to get notification of post on this thread.

One remark: add an age: 1000-1500 AD: Emerging capitalism. The city-based economy is totally different from the agragian subsistence economy of the Middle Ages.

	28-05-2004 17:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Simon Loverix The city-based economy is totally different from the agragian subsistence economy of the Middle Ages.

I agree with this, however, these ages have no effect other than to assist in organization and development of the tree, so I don't really want to go back an add in another age. Besides, I would expect that 99% of players would expect the Middle Ages to be followed by The Renaissance, not Emerging Capitalism.

	29-05-2004 00:39									#18
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I'd rather have a list cut by categories than by ages. So I think we should write here which broad categories will be used, which is more or less which tiers we should use: Military techs, Production techs, etc. Knowing that, for ergonomic reasons, it would be good to have around 5-9 (7?) categories so that when we present the main techs to players, they can keep them all in memory at once.

	29-05-2004 05:06									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I'd rather have a list cut by categories than by ages. So I think we should write here which broad categories will be used, which is more or less which tiers we should use: Military techs, Production techs, etc. Knowing that, for ergonomic reasons, it would be good to have around 5-9 (7?) categories so that when we present the main techs to players, they can keep them all in memory at once.

Understandable. However, I'd like to do the tree one chunk at a time, which is why I opted to group them by ages. I will be organizing them into the various tiers as time goes on, as my little notes say (I've started this already, actually). Eventually, I'll aggregate the entire thing into one monstrous tree, which will not be organized by ages, but by category, as you suggest. For now, I believe the current format to be easier, especially for "passers by" who may only be interested in one particular Age.

	01-06-2004 09:55									#20
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What are unclassief ones? one you're currently unsure of?

Also you are missing some oritental ones, not many though, but this may be because your using european age system. Nothing wrong with that though as those are just for referance.

	01-06-2004 12:48									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai What are unclassief ones? one you're currently unsure of? Also you are missing some oritental ones, not many though, but this may be because your using european age system. Nothing wrong with that though as those are just for referance.

Unclassified, are as you say.

As for oriental ones, I was hoping you would show up to fill in those gaps.

	07-06-2004 05:41									#22
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Thanks for all the work on this alms! I don't have time too look the lists over in detail at this point. The one general observation that I have is that there may be too many items in your list overall. I know "too many" is very subjective, but my concerns in that area are twofold. There two potential effects I'm worried about are that of an overwhelmed player, and also game balancing of the tech system being very difficult. We will of course see in the future if either of these concerns are relevant.

I don't mean for these criticisms to detract from what you've done. It will be a big step forward to have a working ancient tech system for Clash. Thanks for all your efforts!

	07-06-2004 14:12									#23
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In actually going through and working on this for a bit, I think I've managed to come up with a fairly good list for the theory (or Tier 1) techs. I'll list them here, with examples, let me know what you folks think.

Construction (Road Building, Brick Making, etc.)
Communication (Signal Towers, Carrier Pigeons, etc.)
Naval (Sails, Harbor, Hull Making, etc.)
Aerospace (Aerodynamics, Lift Properties, etc.)
Military (Formations, Tactics, etc.)
Economics (Coinage, Caravans, etc.)
Science (Chemistry, Physics, Biology, etc.)
Education (Classical Education, Mathematics, etc.)
Society (Philosophy, Religion, etc.)
Cultural (Painting, Literature, Sculpting, etc.)
Energy (Wood Burning, Charcoal, Peat Extraction, etc.)
Production (Tools, Iron Working, Assembly Line, etc.)
Medicine (Germ Theory, Bleeding, Innoculation, etc.)
Government (Regimes, City Planning, Colonization, etc.)

	08-06-2004 01:51									#24
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Some of these would be tier 2 techs.

Naval, Aerospace and the not mentioned Landbound would fall under Transportation. Stuff like harbor should be under intrastructure,

Medicine would fall under biology. Yes modern medicine uses non-biological components as well, but for most of history it hasn't.

Infrastructure would contrain construction and energy

society should be renamed Humanities and culture renamed arts and should be put under group Social.

Also some of your stuff like Iron Working would go under another tier under production, like metallurgy.

	08-06-2004 03:32									#25
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Doh!
Transportation, for sure.

Infrastructure is extremely general. Did we really want to be that general at the top levels?

I could see medicine under biology, though I just assumed it convienent, though not completely accurate to seperate it. If everyone wants it under bio, I've got no problem with that.

Science (falling under education), Society, Cultural, Education and Government IMO, could be combined into one giant "Social" tech, I just didn't think we were being that general. Does everyone agree with that?

The techs I listed next to the tier 1 techs, were only a general idea of what type of techs are there, nothing more.

So we have:
Construction (Road Building, Brick Making, etc.)
Communication (Signal Towers, Carrier Pigeons, etc.)
Transportation (Sails, Sled , Hull Making, etc.)
Military (Formations, Tactics, etc.)
Economics (Coinage, Caravans, etc.)
Science (Chemistry, Physics, Biology, etc.)
Education (Classical Education, Mathematics, etc.)
Society (Philosophy, Religion, etc.)
Cultural (Painting, Literature, Sculpting, etc.)
Energy (Wood Burning, Charcoal, Peat Extraction, etc.)
Production (Tools, Iron Working, Assembly Line, etc.)
Medicine (Germ Theory, Bleeding, Innoculation, etc.)
Government (Regimes, City Planning, Colonization, etc.)

I'll make the Medicine, Infrastructure and "Social" tech changes once at least one more person agrees with that approach.

If all changes were in place we'd have:
Construction
Communication
Transportation
Military
Economics
Social
Infrastructure

	08-06-2004 05:38									#26
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One thing occured to me that this thread really needs. For the sake of continuity it needs a link to the old tech discussions so that someone stumbling upon it will know what the heck is going on. Alms, could you please post this link, to the Tecnology Model 7 thread in the first post up top? That thread has a pretty exhaustive set of links to prior discussions. I'll get back to you on your proposals once I've got a clear head to think about them.

	09-06-2004 13:03									#27
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one thing...this is in reguards to a previous question i posed...are you going by dates for the earlest time the technology was applicable?

I mean FE beuracracy (close to as we understand it today) then would be a bronze age discovery or iron age at the latest developed by China.

	09-06-2004 15:42									#28
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I'm dealing with it on a case-by-case basis really. I don't use any hard and fast rule as to when to go by "first known use" or "widespread enough."

	13-06-2004 00:09									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I somewhat disagree with the repartition you suggest.
Construction + Communication + Transportation + Military + Economics + Science + Education + Society + Cultural + Energy + Production + Medicine + Government = 13 which is way too much.
Renaming Cultural to Arts is a must if such a category must exist. Medicine belongs under biology.

To me it looks like the economics branch would be very shallow, as I think there are very few principles and applications in it. Obviously economists know better and would disagree.
Separating education from science might be ok, but separating maths from physics at such a low level is dead wrong to me. Physicists tend to do mathematics work to get their tools and some mathematicians like Poincare did some advanced physics stuff (restricted relativity is mostly math for instance). I'd rather group physics and math together and have biology and chemistry in another category.
So lumping Science and education together is good for me. Lumping Society and Government together also makes sense. Lumping Society/Govt and Science together doesn't seem right to me.
In ancient Greek, the word for art is techne, which spawned technics. I think 'art' should be dumped altogether. Considering that painting is an art is not obvious. Drawing is essential in planning the construction of objects, so drawing is a very early construction tech for me, which allows things like architecture, and many designs. Painting is today a very high tech activity (plane painters are not artists but very very skilled technicians for instance). Again, painting is part of construction for me. So to me, arts are an offshoot of construction, where you use construction techniques to build artistic things (things whose main use is to be beautiful).
I'd rather lump society with economics, because both have an impact on everyday way of life. Consider the Marxist theory, which is a theory lumping together economics, history, philosophy and religion. It would fit well in a Society tier which contains economics. This would make economics a second tier tech, which I'd feel more at ease with. Economics (bartering, using coins) is very linked to philosophy and religion. Some cultures consider that eating what you produced yourself is utterly evil, and so their gift economics system is very linked to their philosophy. The Christian relation to banks explains a lot about antisemitism, since jews could lend with interest rates when christians couldn't, etc.

So to me the first tier would be something like (in parenthesis alms's initial list equivalents):

Communication (Communication)
Transportation (Transportation)
Military (Military)
Science (Science, Education, Medicine)
Social (Economics, Society, Government)
Infrastructure (Construction, Cultural*, Energy, Production)

* Painting has uses in social (artistic painting - mostly religious by the way), infrastructure (painting ships hull is essential), military (camouflageing cars and war paints), communication (calligraphy) for instance. Pottery is also infrastructure more than art, but it's still art in my opinion. As for artistic painting, and music, they are mostly religious things and belong to religion, not a separate category (allowing or banning human representation for example). So if cultural as part of infrastructure seems weird, putting it in philosophy/religion makes some sense too, but remember arts are technai.

	14-06-2004 04:38									#30
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I pretty much support Laurent's synthesis. My only quibble is that I think Cultural should go in Social. At that level of coarseness I am tempted to lump Communication and Transportation into a single item. That would leave a slot or two open if we wanted to re-jigger Laurent's list somewhat. But too much thinking about this at this point seems premature. Eventually we will know what the players do with that interface and we can consider splitting heavily-used areas down to a finer level.